Questioning Christianity and a Bigger God with Marcy Kocher

Rebecca:

Welcome to Beautifully Bloomed, the podcast where we explore how to break
you out of the box of rules and beliefs that are holding you back from the
life you are meant to live. I'm your host, Rebecca Turvo. Join me as I
share mindset tools, coaching conversations, and Human Design, to help you
uncover your unique gifts, and create the life, relationships, and business
you desire.

Rebecca:

Marcy Kocher is a life and mindset coach, who specializes in helping smart,
but stressed women create lives of passion, purpose, and peace. So I'm so
excited, Marcy, to have you on today. Thank you so much for joining me on
my podcast.

Marcy:

Oh, thanks for having me, Rebecca. I'm excited to be here.

Rebecca:

Yeah. And so both of us are coach school coaches, and that's how I met you.
And then, we also did a Human Design session. That was fun. We're finding
out more about your design, right. And we found out you're a Generator.

Marcy:

Right. I learned so much.

Rebecca:

Yes, yes. So, what we're talking about in this series is, I put out a note
about, I wanted to have talks about religious, sort of faith crisis, or
religious transitions. And you responded by saying you wanted to talk about
this religious deconstruction. I think that's what you called it. Right?
Deconstruct.

Marcy:

I did.

Rebecca:

So I was very curious about that. And then, you started telling me about
your story. Because I was like, "Well, what religion did you grow up in?"
And then, it wasn't really one. So take us through that. I'm really curious
now for our audience to hear how your growing up years went, as far as
religion goes.

Marcy:

Yeah. So my religious/spiritual life, I think is a little different than
most people. I grew up in a home where my parents didn't really believe in
God. They didn't want to talk about it; but I always felt very called to
God. And so, I would ask my parents to take me to church, and they would.
They would take me to church, and they would drop me off, and they would
pick me up when church was over.

Marcy:

And so, I went to different churches when I was in elementary school. I
would to the Baptist church with my friends, or I would go to Church of God
with my grandmother. I remember getting a Bible at Sunday school, and I had
it next to my bed for years. Here I was, second, third, fourth grade, and I
was trying to read the Bible all by myself. And I just really had a hunger
for God. I grew up in the country. There was a lot of solitude. And I just
always felt like I was talking to God, like there was God with me all the
time.

Marcy:

And then, when I went to middle school and high school, I went to Catholic
school. And so, I started going to Catholic masses. Again, I just felt that
real connection with God; even though I wasn't technically a Catholic, I
was going to the masses. And then, when I went off to college, I met some
born again Christians, and I fell into that, and I loved it. I fell in love
with the Christian faith. I fell in love with the people. It was very much
about Bible study, so it was a very intellectual thing, as well as a very
personal connection with God. And that was really where I settled for about
20 plus years, and went to church every Sunday, got my kids up in that
faith.

Marcy:

Then, in my early forties, I went through a pretty painful divorce. I was a
single mom. I was exhausted. And I just had decided one weekend while my
kids were with their dad, I was just not going to go to church. It was
probably the first time in 20 years, I hadn't gone into church. And I just
stayed at home, and I remember it was a Sunday morning, and I sat on my
deck, and I had a cup of tea, and I had my Bible, and I'm just talking to
God. And I felt so refreshed and so connected and so close to God, that I
just kind of kept doing that.

Marcy:

And it was interesting. So the more that I stayed away from the church, it
was almost like the deeper my connection to God got, and the more open I
became to God. And so, it was never like I was mad at the church or anybody
hurt me. In fact, they were amazing, and supported me so extravagantly
during my divorce. And I still am great friends with a lot of those people.

Marcy:

But what I realized was that I was putting God in this very small container
of Christianity. And the more I was out of it, it was like the clearer I
could see how big He was, and how majestic and how inclusive and how
loving. And that's really what started my whole deconstruction period of
religion.

Rebecca:

So actually, what I heard you say then, is by going to this church, they
told you, "This is who God is."

Marcy:

Yes.

Rebecca:

"And this is what He accepts. And this is what He doesn't accept." Right?

Marcy:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Rebecca:

And if you act this way, then you're acceptable. But there's some things,
if you do those things, you're not really accept. Is that the kind of...

Marcy:

Yeah, very close. Now, even though it was a very grace-centered church, it
really was very loving and very open, but still, yeah, there were a lot of
things that they interpreted as "this is the right way to live."

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Marcy:

"And these are things you're supposed to do and things you're not supposed
to do."

Rebecca:

Yeah. Certain behaviors aren't really acceptable, or it's a sin, or it's
like...

Marcy:

Exactly.

Rebecca:

Have to ask for forgiveness and repentance and all of the things. Right?

Marcy:

Exactly.

Rebecca:

Is that kind of the...

Marcy:

Exactly.

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Marcy:

And I bought it; for a long time, it really met my needs, and it was really
wonderful for me. But I was at a place in my life where I was expanding in
ways that I didn't even really understand. I went through a divorce, and my
entire life was changing; and I was just starting to question things like I
had never questioned them before.

Rebecca:

What I find interesting about that, were you around the age of 42-ish when
this was happening?

Marcy:

Yeah. It was right around that age.

Rebecca:

Yeah. That was your Uranus Opposition time. If we look at astrology,
there's these lifecycle phases, and 42-ish is around Uranus Opposition, and
Uranus is about something shocking might happen, or something that kind of
jars you to remind you. And around the time I was 42, my child died. Right?
So it's like, we all have something that happens. I'm not telling everybody
in the world, "Oh my gosh, what's going to happen when you're 42?"

Rebecca:

But it's interesting. There's something that's here to remind you of who
you are. Because at 42 was when I started questioning really hard, what my
feel faith was about; what is church about, even? What's religion about?
This thing happened, and I must have been a bad Christian or... I blamed it
on that, like I'm a bad Christian. You know?

Marcy:

Right.

Rebecca:

I didn't do it right. You know what I mean? So, interesting.

Marcy:

Totally. And I think because religion is really, is a paradox for us to try
to understand our world. And when something like that happens, and there's
just no understanding, it does kind of make you question things. It was
like, "Wait a minute. None of this makes any sense." And it really opens
you up to a bigger picture, I think.

Rebecca:

Yeah. So, in your story, when you got divorced, was it the thing about
divorce that had you questioning, or what had you kind of looking or seeing
it a different way?

Marcy:

Yeah. It wasn't divorce, because at the time I felt like, I didn't want the
divorce. My husband left me for another woman. And so, I felt, "I'm still
good with God." Right? "I didn't mess up. It was all his fault." So I still
felt good with God. But I think for me it was just wanting more, like the
depth; there was just this depth and this intimacy that I was craving. And
things just didn't make sense to me anymore. The only way to God is through
Jesus.

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Marcy:

You know?

Rebecca:

There's one path.

Marcy:

Yeah. There's one path. And even though I love Jesus, and all that kind of
stuff, it was like, I'm starting to look outside of this small container of
this church that I've lived in for 20 plus years. And I'm starting to
realize, "You know what? There's a whole big world out here. And I just
can't believe that God doesn't love them, too. That doesn't make sense to
me."

Rebecca:

Yeah. And I don't... Did your church tell you that, "No. Our church, the
way we interpret the Bible, the way we interpret what Jesus said, this is
the way. Those other ones..." Now, I don't know if this is, but this is how
our church is. "The other ones are worldly churches. They have their own...
That's not the way it is. We have the right way."

Marcy:

Yeah. We have the right way.

Rebecca:

You know?

Marcy:

Everybody else is deceived, and we know the right way. And I was just like,
"Well, that just doesn't make sense to me." That seemed incredibly
arrogant, in a way. And I think maybe because of my divorce, I was in a
very humble stage of my life. I was just at a place where it was like,
everything I thought I knew, I realized I didn't. And it was very humbling.
And it was very freeing at the same time to say, "I don't know." You know?

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Marcy:

And I remember my kids coming to me; we had raised them in the church, and
so, they would come and they'd ask all these big questions about God and
life. And I always had a Bible verse for them, to answer their questions.
And they started asking me questions, and I started saying, "I don't know."
And I remember one time, my son, we were sitting in the kitchen, and he
just looks at me, and he's like, "What do you mean you don't know?" He's
just like, "You always know."

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Marcy:

And I'm like, "I don't know."I said, "I can tell you what I do know for
sure. God is good. God loves us. And He's for us. And I trust Him, and
that's really all I need to know. I don't need to know the rest anymore."

Rebecca:

Yeah. I had this thought that, "I believe in a God that loves everybody. I
don't believe in a God that picks and chooses, 'I love you, but I can't
love you. You're not acceptable.'" I just could not go that route anymore.
But I feel like that's kind of the question in my mind since I was in high
school, "How can He just love these 'chosen people'? And what about these
other ones?"

Rebecca:

So it's really hard to go back to that black and white thinking, that
narrow mindedness that I tried really hard to get away from. Because my
whole life was about that. There's judgment. You judge if it's right or
wrong. Right? It's black or white, right or wrong. It's a narrow path.
There's no in-betweens.

Marcy:

Right.

Rebecca:

And it's, so narrow minded that it really makes your world quite small.

Marcy:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

You know?

Marcy:

Yeah. And that's what I realized, that as I was just giving myself some
time to heal by not going to church, and just having some alone time, I
started realizing, "Wow. I didn't realize what a small container I had been
living in." But as I was apart from it, I just started seeing things more
clearly, and realizing how much bigger the world really is. And looking
back on my spiritual life ever since I was a child, seeing that I've always
been called to God. And that's exactly what was happening to me. I felt
like God was calling me to Him in a deeper, more intimate way. Like, "Hey,
I'm bigger." You know?

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Marcy:

And I don't regret any of that religious time at all, because it was the
path that led me to where I'm at now; and where will I be in five years?
Who knows?

Rebecca:

Yeah. I don't know either. What I love is just being open to whatever comes
next, because that's what I am now. There's not this fixed path anymore for
me, which I thought there was. It's like, "Okay. In our church you do this
and then you do this and then..." Right? You keep trodding the path, and
you go to the next step. I'm like, "Huh. What if you just take everything
as it comes, and you live a life from love and compassion and openness?"

Marcy:

Yes.

Rebecca:

And that, I felt that was missing, in some respects. Now, I also have to
say, I think that religion can be amazing for so many people. I think some
people really find their peace and comfort and whatever there. And that's
fine.

Marcy:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

But what I'm saying for myself, is that, "Can we all believe for ourselves
what we choose to believe, instead of somebody else telling us what we have
to believe." That's where I was getting tripped up. You know?

Marcy:

Yeah. I totally agree. And that was kind of part of the whole beginning of
the deconstruction for me is, I remember sitting in church on Sunday
morning, and listening to the pastor, and just all of a sudden going, "Who
made this up? Who said we're supposed to go to a building, and we sing
three songs, and then we listen to the pastor tell us about the Bible. And
then we all hug each other, and go out to lunch." And it's like, "Who made
this?" I started realizing this is just made up. This isn't in the Bible.

Rebecca:

Right.

Marcy:

And God didn't come down and say, "This is how I want you to do church."
Right?

Rebecca:

I know.

Marcy:

And that kind of opened it up for me. I was like, "If this is made up, what
else is made up?"

Rebecca:

Right. I have some funny thoughts sometimes. I heard some when say, "In
Jesus' day they didn't have a Bible."

Marcy:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

Well, wait a minute. So we're all focused on this Bible thing. It's the
center of our universe, and you're making Jesus a central figure. There was
no Bible. What? How does that work? I started just having funny thoughts
about that kind of stuff.

Marcy:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

Huh. Interesting. What did people do before Jesus came? I don't know.

Marcy:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

It's just fascinating.

Marcy:

Yeah. And that's really what deconstruction is, when we start questioning
things and going, "Okay. This all got constructed by people."

Rebecca:

By people, by men.

Marcy:

Probably men. Right? And now, we're starting to look at it and question it.
And there's so many things if you look into the historical, cultural
aspects of the church, you realize, "Wow. A lot of it was cultural. A lot
of it was just made up for what worked for them at the time. And now we're
just still doing it." You know?

Rebecca:

Yes.

Marcy:

Without questioning it.

Rebecca:

Or even what worked for a certain... If you look at the King James Bible,
which is what our church said, "You have to do the King James Version."
Well, where did that come from? I looked that history up. I'm like, "Okay.
So we trust King James and whoever he hired to transcribe all the different
ways language had to go, from Latin and Greek and all of that," right,
"Hebrew, to get to English, to something we could understand. What were
those people's beliefs?" Right? They put their perspective into it.

Marcy:

Right. And they lived in a very different world than we live in today. So
what they believed and what worked for them might not really be working for
us.

Rebecca:

I know.

Marcy:

But we still keep it going, because we think it came from God.

Rebecca:

Yeah. So that deconstruction, which it just depends, I know many of us,
many people that I talk to, we have different ways they grew up and
different practices, I guess, in their religion versus mine. But still,
there's this similarity about, "But we have to do it this way, otherwise
something bad's going to happen."

Marcy:

Right.

Rebecca:

Like, "Oh. If we don't keep to these practices, if we don't do these
things, something..." It's like this constant thought in the back of your
head; it's like a nagging, you know that nagging in the back of your head,
"Better be good. Better wear clothes like this. Better not do that." But I
had that my whole life in my head, because I'm not a good Christian if I
don't do this, and if I don't... Right? And it's so weird to really
question that voice, and even to start ignoring it and letting it go, that
has been very fascinating.

Rebecca:

And I would actually say for me, that I've had religious trauma. There's
some trauma involved there, where I feel like I was conditioned so much to
believe that what I think myself can't be true. You know what I mean? Now
that might not have been your experience, but for me, "Don't trust what you
think."

Marcy:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

That's not true. We have to listen to the minister, then they're telling us
the words from God that's coming from the Bible readings. Right?

Marcy:

Right.

Rebecca:

But if you think something is true, and it goes against what they say,
probably that's not right. The devil might be talking to you, or... So, to
let go of that is... It's freeing in one way. In another way, it's really
hard.

Marcy:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

You know?

Marcy:

No, I totally understand that, and can relate to that, too. And I think I'm
still kind of on that journey, where luckily I have an amazing husband,
who's very supportive and we can talk very openly about this kind of stuff.
But most of our friends and family are still in the church. And so, there
are times where those old thoughts will come up and be like, "What if I'm
just being deceived? What if I'm just listening to the devil? What if the
devil is just trying to pull me out, and isolate me so that I can't be used
by God?" And those kinds of thoughts; and so I can talk to my husband about
it, luckily, and be like, "Ugh." And he is like, "No, no, no." And we can
get it all out. But you're right; that is just part of that old
conditioning that we had learned to believe, to not trust ourselves.

Rebecca:

Yeah. And as I've learned from being a life coach about the way the brain
works, it's like the more you think something, that thicker that neural
pathway is. Right? It's like a super highway in your head. And so,
deconstructing that thick neural pathway, it takes some time.

Marcy:

Yeah, it does.

Rebecca:

And it can feel frustrating. And I love that you have somebody to talk to.

Marcy:

Yeah, I do too. He's been amazing for me. And even at first, I was kind of
afraid to tell him. I was like, "I'm having all these thoughts, and we got
married as Christians; and then all of a sudden I'm like, 'I don't know if
I'm a Christian anymore.'" And that was a little scary to be able to talk
about that, but he's fantastic. And we can talk about anything, and he
loves me no matter what.

Rebecca:

Yeah. And I even said it in another interview with someone, too. I
encourage people; the first step is you need to find somebody you can talk
to about it. I know a lot of people that I grew up with, or friends or
family, they're not safe people to talk to about this. I've tried now a few
times. It doesn't work for me.

Marcy:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

They become defensive. They want to tell you, "You need to stay it." Right?
There's all that stuff.

Marcy:

They start reciting scripture to you.

Rebecca:

Yeah, exactly.

Marcy:

But if you think about that whole trust thing, about if we grew up
believing that we have this sin nature. Right? And that we have to
constantly be dependent upon God for everything, in order to be good
people.

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Marcy:

Then that makes perfect sense that if you start having thoughts that don't
go along with that, that you're not going to trust that.

Rebecca:

And other people from where you came from won't trust it either. They're
like, "Oh. What have you been reading? What have you been studying? Who are
you listening to? Because you're being deceived."

Marcy:

Right.

Rebecca:

Again, so I shouldn't trust myself. And right, that's the message I keep
getting.

Marcy:

So how is that trauma playing out in your life now? Is it still something
that you deal with or...

Rebecca:

Yeah, for sure. No. I feel like I'm in the middle of this; because as I'm
talking about this on my podcast, I'm not even sure if at this moment when
this is being released, have I told my parents yet. Haven't talked to my
sister yet, probably. And there's some main people in my life that I would
like to have a conversation with; however, I don't feel ready. Right?

Marcy:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

So I feel like 2022 is the year for me to explore this for myself, and open
the conversation for others. Because I feel like there's not enough spaces
where we can feel comfortable talking about this stuff. And I know that
there's people listening, who haven't even taken any steps to tell anybody
yet. So, can we make it normal that this might be something you'll go
through you? And you might-

Marcy:

Wow.

Rebecca:

Yeah. You might need support. And so, I would love that 2022 becomes my
year to work through my stuff, while holding space for the conversation.

Marcy:

And thank you for that. Because as you're doing that, you're holding space
for all of us who are starting to question, and maybe choosing to walk a
different path, and maybe not; but that's okay. But we should have that
freedom to explore the questions.

Rebecca:

That's the biggest thing. I think everybody deserves to believe what they
want to believe, and not be judged for it. We can't help having those
people judge us for it, but still, you believe what you want, I'll believe
what I want. It'll be fantastic. Can't we be friends? You know?

Marcy:

Absolutely. And isn't that what makes this world so amazing, that God did
create us all in our uniqueness and our differences, and that we have so
much to offer to each other.

Rebecca:

Yes. And so, I want to make a plug here for why Human Design is so
important; because when I found out about Human Design, I was like, "Oh,
there's these things I thought were so wrong with me: religion things, all
that; but really it's in my design." I'm like, "How amazing is that? I'm
designed to do this thing that I thought was wrong, because I was kind of
told, 'Don't go do that. Don't go researching things, for instance.'"
Whereas my Line One is about researching.

Marcy:

Yes.

Rebecca:

I'm here to research. Isn't that amazing? And I'm like, "What if I just
allowed myself to research?" I've been on a 10-year journey here,
researching religion stuff. I feel like I'm finally ready to talk about it.
It's taken me this long. I think it's a super fascinating topic, and it's
not easy being where I come from, to open myself up to talk about it. But I
feel like this is my first step to be more honest and authentic about it.
Because I think that this puts a block for all of us. If you can't be true
to who you are, it puts a block in happiness in your relationships, your
business, anything; it just puts a block. Don't you think?

Marcy:

Totally. Totally. And when we are aligned spiritually, right, and with all
of it, that is when we are living our true selves or living our true life.
100%

Rebecca:

If you have to hide it, you're not in alignment with yourself. If you have
to hide who you truly are, and you can't feel like you can be accepted for
who you are, then I think that is worse feeling. And I've felt that for
many years. I put a mask on, and you go to church. You put a mask on, you
pretend, and it's not their fault because I was pretending. I'm pretending.
I'm like, "Okay. I'm pretending to be like you. And I'm pretending to say
certain things just because that's what's acceptable."

Marcy:

Yeah. And the reason why we pretend is because we want to feel safe. Right?

Rebecca:

Yes. It is. It's about safety. It's about comfort. Yes. And security. And
it's your whole community that you've grown up with, if they're going to
kick you out of the tribe. That's really scary. That's the kind of stuff
I'm facing right now. Now COVID happened; for me, this is when I started.
You said you stayed home when your kids went with your ex-husband. I stayed
home because of COVID. There's a good excuse to not be at church. So I'm
just not going to be there. Right? And it just gives you time to kind of
just process that. What does it feel to not go to church every Sunday? Hmm.
This is interesting. Right?

Marcy:

Right.

Rebecca:

It's an interesting experiment. And that's allowed me to get more
courageous about, "Oh. I'm not going to go back. You know what? I'm just
not going to." I don't know if COVID wouldn't have come, would I now be
where I am? I don't know.

Marcy:

Wow.

Rebecca:

So I think it was an opportunity for me to really just revisit some things
that I was hiding from.

Marcy:

No. That's so cool. Another interesting thing that's come from COVID, huh?

Rebecca:

I know. Well, we can say about all the interesting things. But thank you so
much, Marcy, for joining me today. Before we end, just tell people where
can they find you? What is your program about? Who do you help? That kind
of thing.

Marcy:

Yeah. So I help smart, but stressed women create lives of passion, purpose,
and peace. And really, it is all about helping women create their own
internal safety, so that they can become aligned with who they are, learn
to really love themselves. And that's where we start building that
relationship, building that safety, getting back into alignment. And then
from that place, we start creating. Right? We start figuring out what they
want, who they are, what they were made for, what their passion is, what
their purpose is. But we do it all from a place of peace and ease. There's
no forcing. There's no striving. It's all about learning to live your life
the way that we were meant to live it.

Rebecca:

Awesome. That just sounds like my message. That's so funny. A lot of us
have that alignment message. Right?

Marcy:

Yes. Yes.

Rebecca:

Thank you so much for joining me, Marcy, and I will talk to you next time.

Marcy:

Okay. Thank you.

Rebecca:

If you enjoyed listening to this podcast, please go subscribe so that you
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there, please leave me a review, and let me know what you think. So excited
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