Conversations About Religious Expectations with TaVona Denise

Rebecca:

Welcome to Beautifully Bloomed, the podcast where we explore how to break
you out of the box of rules and beliefs that are holding you back from the
life you are meant to live. I'm your host, Rebecca Tervo. Join me as I
share mindset tools, coaching conversations, and human design to help you
uncover your unique gifts and create the life, relationships and business
you desire.

Rebecca:

Hi, TaVona. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.

TaVona:

I am so excited to take on this conversation with you Rebecca.

Rebecca:

Yeah. So before I start, I just want to let the audience know that you and
I know each other from The Life Coach School, right? You were a Life Coach
School coach. And last year when I started getting into human design, we
talked about me coming into your program. And then I did some work with
your clients, right? That's how we [inaudible 00:00:51], you got curious.
You got curious about human design too. So that's so fun.

TaVona:

And down the rabbit hole, I went.

Rebecca:

It's perfectly normal for a five, one to go down the rabbit hole.

TaVona:

But just a little bit. Just enough to be able to be competent and know what
I'm talking about. I don't even know all the things and then go get
certified or anything.

Rebecca:

Yeah. That's awesome. So I thought it would be fun because I am having
these conversations this year, in 2022, about religion and about
conditioning and about any kind of religious transitions. And you reached
out to me, because I put this thing out like, hey, does anybody want to
talk? And oh my goodness, the response. And I'm like, wow, this is a topic
people want to talk about. And so this has been really fun. So I'm curious
if you could just tell us a little bit of the background, like what
religion did you grow up in? Let's start with that.

TaVona:

Well, just as simply put, I was raised Baptist. And you asked, Southern
Baptist, regular Baptist? I'm like, I don't know. Baptist.

Rebecca:

It was just Baptist. I'm curious in, when you were growing up in this
religion, were there certain rules that were expected for you to follow?
What were the rules or...

TaVona:

Of course like the 10 commandments and everything from the Bible but I
think the biggest one that I've... It wasn't... I don't even know if it was
a stated rule or not, but it was... or I don't know if this was just a mom
rule or something, but I knew that you were not supposed to curse, use bad
words. You weren't supposed to fornicate. You weren't supposed... I mean,
you were supposed to be in church and... Those are really the main ones
that stood out to me.

Rebecca:

Well, yeah. It's sort of like the expectations, right? That's what I
thought too. Because I'm like, there's all these rules I have to follow.
And people would be like, well there's not really rules. I'm like, yes. But
if I do something that's outside the quote rules, then you all look at me
like I'm weird or I'm not really in church anymore, I don't believe, I'm
not a true believer. It's like... Do you know what I mean?

TaVona:

Oh yeah. I mean, it's a total thing because part of it is asking for
forgiveness and praying for forgiveness and repenting and being baptized
and all of these things. I got to a point where I was like, well, I don't
want to be a hypocrite. And there are certain things that I'm just not
ready to give up. So there's no real point in me asking for forgiveness for
something that I know I'm going to do again.

TaVona:

There were two things that happened. It became this tug of war in my mind
of like, do I go against my own nature and what I want to do for these
rules that I can't find anywhere in this Bible that I'm supposed to be
reading and I can't quite see why these things are so bad. And do I ask for
forgiveness for these things, knowing that I'm going to do it again. So it
doesn't even make sense to ask for forgiveness or do I just walk away?

TaVona:

I think I had that going on in my mind. I also had this time where I
studied religion. I studied mythology in AP, Advanced Placement English. I
started to see that there were a lot of similarities. When I was studying
mythology and I'm like, wait a minute. This story sounds very much like in
the children's Bible book that I read or when I took world religion and I
started learning about other religions and I'm like, wait a minute, they're
all saying, all these Dats are saying the same thing. But they just have
different names or they just have slightly different rules or procedures or
whatever.

TaVona:

And so that was really what puts a kink in my faith if you will, or belief
that there was only one way. Not that it put a kink in my faith and my
belief and a Dat or a higher power or power outside of myself. But that
there was only one correct religion. And so that's what started to happen
to me.

Rebecca:

Yeah. So you were raised where the message was, this is the right way. That
you come here and you act this way and we are the ones who are going to
heaven. With those other people over there, no.

TaVona:

Right. And I remember having a conversation with one of my parents and I
was like, but what about the people that live in the Amazon who've never
been exposed to any [inaudible 00:05:22] or anybody that has brought the
religion to them. And then they would just be like, no, the Bible says that
it will be made known to everyone and that you should accept Jesus Christ
is your Lord and savior and then... And I'm like, just part of that never
sat well with me. It just didn't feel right. And so that's where I was just
like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to do that.

Rebecca:

Yeah. Interesting. I mean, I don't know how yours was but in our church
community, it was really recommended or really looked down upon if you went
and got friends and married outside the church and any of that. Like, stay
in this community because this is the safest place for you. Because if you
go be friends with people outside or you find a spouse, you're going to be
led stray. You're going to be off the straight narrow path. The devil's
going to visit you. I don't know, right? Like the weirdest...

TaVona:

It's so interesting. Thankfully, I think the church that I was raised in
was a little bit more relaxed than that. A little more open. I'm partially
watching this show called My Unorthodox Life. And I didn't really realize
the Jewish community was so tight like that and just stay in here and learn
from here. But I wasn't raised that way. You could date other people from
other denominations. There wasn't...

Rebecca:

You can. However, it is so bad. It's just so frowned upon. It's interesting
because... So what you said, that just really speaks to me because I had
the same experience. I'm like how can our little church, our little
religion, which is a... It's Apostolic Lutheran, was what I grew up in. So
it's... But it's only this one part. There's all these other Apostolic
Lutheran churches. They're not the right way, right?

Rebecca:

So none of [inaudible 00:07:18] It's just us, our little... We are the ones
and I'm like, that just never felt... I'm like, out of 7 billion people or
whatever in the world, our one little spot with.... I don't know, we
probably have a few thousand, I suppose if we look at the different
congregations, maybe. How is that? And then, like you said, starting to
look at other religions.

Rebecca:

So I would be like, why does that branch of church believe that women can
never cut their hair? They have to wear skirts. These are the rules they
follow. And why do we believe you can ever wear makeup? There's no earrings
and you're not allowed to have nail Polish. Now we believe that's simple.

Rebecca:

But then there's these other people over here, they can wear all the makeup
they want, except they have to wear these undergarments to go to temple.
Like what [inaudible 00:08:05] all these different things. And it just to
me, I was like, what is going on? Who made up the rules? If we're all
looking at the Bible where are-

TaVona:

Because you were even differentiating between the different types of
Lutheran churches and everybody that was looking at the Bible forget people
that are looking at Tehran and all these other religious scripts. So that
is so fascinating to me. I never even thought about it like that. I think
for me, I just got tired of the pomping circumstance and just all of the
procedures and the hierarchy and...

TaVona:

My grandmother's family is from a different church. There is a very
specific hierarchy and in that, whenever we would go to her church, I would
just be like, what in the world is happening in this church? It felt very
much like the men were praised and I was like, wait a minute, there should
be no gods other than me. What happened to that part in the Bible?

TaVona:

So it was just very interesting to see even from the church that my mom was
raised in versus the one that I was raised in and then going back to church
when we would go to visit my grandma.

Rebecca:

Well, the other question I was wondering, well, what age were you when you
decided, I'm done, I'm not going to go back? What age was that?

TaVona:

Well, I went back and forth because I went through college and that's when
I studied the religion. And that's when I started thinking, okay, there's
something going on here. And then I went and it got really into church
again after I got out of college. And I don't even remember the story
behind it but I think what I was craving more than anything, was community
and being-

Rebecca:

That's a big one.

TaVona:

...with people, right? And looking at how tightly knit this particular
community was and the friendships and just praying together and having
people looking out for me. And so I think that's why I went into the
religion there. And for me, at least that particular church was way more
laid back. The pastors weren't on a super pedestal. They wore regular
people clothes. They weren't all like blinged out and driving the fancy
cars and like we're... So I mean, I have money stories around that as well.
But I really, really appreciated the community more than the rules and the
religion.

TaVona:

And so I think when I... And I don't even at this point remember when or
how or why I stopped being a part of that. I do remember. It ended up
being, for lack of a better way of saying this, it's more like cultish to
me in terms of that. You know how you were talking about, you had to stay
within community and all that. People were getting married within the
community. It was very much like they were really serious about not having
sex before marriage.

TaVona:

So we would see people go on these supervised dates and so that everything
stayed pure and all of this other stuff. But people were getting married
super quickly so that they wouldn't break the no fornication rule. And so I
was just like, I don't know that that works for me either though.

Rebecca:

Yes. Well, that is so interesting that you say that. Because so few things
you said, so community is one really hard reason why you don't want to
leave, right? It's like, I don't want to lose my community. This is the
community I grew up in. We did all the things together. We went to
confirmation together and Sunday school together. I don't know. We've had
all the things. We have a kids group that gets together, right?

Rebecca:

All the things that keep you attached to the church is... Here's where my
community is. I don't really know much outside the community. My whole
family, my dad's whole family, my husband, his whole family, we're all in
the community.

Rebecca:

Now, if you leave the community, I know because I've experienced 50 years
worth of people leaving. And I know what happens to them. Because on the
inside, I'm on the inside seeing what people are saying about the people
who left, right? It's like being banished. If you've ever studied the Amish
where they actually shun people, that can be what it's like, the shunning.
It's like a shunning and it feels sad and terrible. It breaks families
apart. And there's so much judgment. There's so much judgment and guilt and
shame. And it just feels like you just don't want to face that.

Rebecca:

So then you just stay in. No matter if you believe or not. It's like you
pretend. That's exactly what happens with me. I pretended for I don't know,
how many years I pretended for now. See, so it's just sad.

TaVona:

So how did you... What made you eventually leave?

Rebecca:

Well, COVID happened. And I was like, oh, I don't have to go. Like
literally, there's a good excuse to not go to church. So I stayed home. And
then as I stayed home, I think the longer you stay home and you don't go on
a Sunday, you think this is fine. I can do this. I can... You gain some of
your own... Not being in the community all the time, you gain some of your
own perspective again. It gives you space. It gave me space to think about
it and to read more stuff and to watch more ex Mormon videos. I got really
into ex Mormon videos because I feel some of the same things they feel.

Rebecca:

I mean, it gave me a different perspective of like, oh, there's other
people that feel the same way. There's other churches that have quote
ridiculous rules or practices or what some people would call traditions.
Because it's not listed in the 10 commandments, right? Thou shall not wear
earrings. Thou shall not dance. Thou shall not go to the movies. It's not
listed there. You know what I mean? Thou shall not drink alcohol. None of
that is listed in 10 commandments.

Rebecca:

However, there's so much guilt and shame if you don't follow these rules
and these traditions, in these ways of behaving. Like you're an outsider.

TaVona:

And I never really liked watching how some of the people inside the church
talked down on or looked down on people who were outside of the church. And
part of the reason why that bothered me so much is because I was there and
I would see how some of them would behave. But it was almost like because
they went to church on Sunday, that absolved them from-

Rebecca:

They think it's okay, right?

TaVona:

But you're in a church, but this person is doing... They're being a good
human being, but they just don't go to church and so they're damned to
hell. But you do everything Monday through Saturday and then on Sunday,
you're in church so you're okay. That part does always bother me.

Rebecca:

It's like when... What I was seeing too is people who didn't ever come to
our church, but they were super moral and nice people. They had good lives.
They were family people. See, I think what people think is when you're not
in our church, then you're going to start being an alcoholic. You're going
to start sleeping around on your spouse or something. You're going to get a
divorce. I don't know. You're going to be really unhappy. There's something
that's going to happen.

Rebecca:

And I'm like, but I was seeing there's all these people outside of our
religion, that's the right way, they're doing the wrong way, but they seem
happy and they have families and they're married and they have kids and
they seem to have happy families and they're not cheating on their spouse.
You know what I mean? They're not drunk and they're not [inaudible
00:15:48]. I was like, huh, you can be happy with your own belief system,
right? I was like, it just... When you've been in it for so long, it's just
really hard to extricate yourself.

TaVona:

Yeah. I mean, just of all the conditioning and I think that even in some
ways affected me when I started to have my own business and really started
to be visible and share some of my thoughts and ideas and really just be
myself. Because I know we were talking about this before we press record
and that, one of the things that you just didn't do was say bad words or
curse. And then I'm still not sure where that is in the Bible, but in any
case-

Rebecca:

I don't know either.

TaVona:

Right. But it was definitely something that I saw people doing, I heard
people doing, but God forbid, you say it in public, like, oh my gosh. And
so I just made a conscious decision that I'm going to be myself. I'm going
to say things how I see things. I'm going to be just like how I really am
in real life because I don't want to put on this mask and attract people to
me by being one way. But then when you get to know me more or I feel more
safe or comfortable around you or I let my guard down, then heaven forbid,
I say a curse word. And then you're like, who is this person?

TaVona:

So it was really interesting because then of course I would have my mom
say, you could tone it down on the cursing or whatever from my podcast. And
I'm like, but this is how I really talk. So, why hide that and why is that
such a big deal?

Rebecca:

Yeah. Well, that's the thing too. I was going to ask you, when you decided
you were leaving, what did your family... Did that cause any strife between
you and your family or was it okay, they're just accepting of that?

TaVona:

I'm very fortunate in that my parents is very religious. Not strict, but
they're religious. And of course you still hear me making references and I
say, oh Lord, help me Jesus and all kind of stuff. Because that's just the
condition and that's how I was raised. But they've always been very
supportive and very open. And sometimes I think about it and sometimes I'm
like, who will or what mom or dad think when they see this or they read
this or whatever? But they love me.

TaVona:

And so I think that has helped me more than anything to just step into who
I am. And there was never, for me at least, a grand exit, if you will.
There wasn't this big announcement like, I'm leaving the church. It helped
me, like COVID helped you. I used to be a physical therapist and I worked
in a hospital setting and so I worked mostly weekends.

TaVona:

So from time to time, they would ask, well, when's the last time you've
been to church or when you're going to church or whatever? And I'm like,
the hospital is my church because I'm there every weekend. Literally I was
working every weekend. So it is one of those things where I had a bit of an
excuse or a reason to not go that was legitimate. And so then eventually
they just stopped asking.

Rebecca:

It's interesting that too. It's like one of my family members told me that
it's really important you being in church every Sunday. This was after our
son died of suicide. So we had this... Our 17 year old son, he died of
suicide about 10 years ago, which is what prompted me to have a ton of
questions, right? Because suicide is one of those things.

TaVona:

Yep. Don't do that.

Rebecca:

Christians will tell you that it's a sin. You're going to hell. And I had
to really grapple with this idea. This is where my questioning started.
Because I couldn't find the support within our church, but yet our church
is right. You're not supposed to go outside and look for help, right? Even
so many people would look down on therapy. They're not Christians. These
therapists aren't Christians. So how...

Rebecca:

So when I become a life coach, guess what? People are like, what are you
doing? How weird are you? All these things, the judgements I... And it felt
even uncomfortable to me even sometimes. But I'm like, no. That was the
opening for me to really express who I am in a way that went against what I
was taught to believe. So I think mine has been a cracking of the shell,
from 10 years ago till... It's like a little bit at a time. This is me. A
little bit at a time. Finding out who I am. Finding out who I am. Trying to
give a little more and show a little more. It's not easy though, right?

Rebecca:

It sounds like for you maybe it was a little more. For me, I haven't even
told parents yet in reality. So it'll be coming. However, I'm waiting for
the right timing, all that stuff. It feels like it does have to be. And I
thought about that too. I could just not show up and just go away and
pretend it's all good. But then I don't feel like I'm being honest. How can
it be authentic? If you feel like you're hiding something, I don't want to
hide anymore. I'm so tired of this. I've been wearing a mask for what? A
long time.

Rebecca:

I think for a long time, I've started having doubts in high school. That
was a long time ago. And I just like, no, this is the path. You get married
as soon as you can. So you were tying up the purity culture. You shouldn't
be having sex before marriage, that's for sure. So you better get married
really young and start having babies right away. There's no [crosstalk
00:21:21].

TaVona:

Right. Because that's the only reason sex there exists, right?

Rebecca:

And there's no birth control. So you better have as many [crosstalk
00:21:28]

TaVona:

Thankfully that's not part of how I was raised.

Rebecca:

But I'm just saying that... See all of this stuff, I was like, I never
believed that. In fact... So I had five pregnancies. Many of my friends
have 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 children. So none of them... I have four. None
of them have four. They all have a bit more than that. So in that respect,
I held onto my convictions about that. However, I always felt left out. I
always felt like I'm weird. It's like a race, right? How many kids can you
have? I don't know. It doesn't even make sense to me. Anyways...

TaVona:

It's just really interesting how the different... And I just always think,
well, how did... Who came up with this stuff?

Rebecca:

Well, yes. Who said, my only job as a woman is to have children, take care
of my home and make sure my husband is well fed and stuff? Who said that's
my only job as a woman? And I always bucked against the system on that one.
Girls or women weren't encouraged back when I was graduating from high
school, we weren't encouraged to go to college. Because we're going to find
a husband. That was in 1988. We're going to find a husband. But I went to
college because my mother had gone to college and she felt it was
important.

Rebecca:

So at least she had a different view than a lot of the women. And I'm
grateful for that. So I went to college and I did get a husband and got
married because that's what you did. You didn't feel normal, unless you did
that. So my husband and I have talked a lot about that. He's like, you just
married me because it was what you had to do. I'm like, no. [crosstalk
00:23:13]. But it's hard for him not to think that, right? Because we've
had a lot of religious discussions.

TaVona:

Well, that's an interesting thing about what you're supposed to do. Because
I'm 42 years old now. Never been married, no kids. And people get...
Suitors will ask, well wait a minute, you don't have any kids. Why don't
you have any kids? And my response is always, because I've never been
married. And so for me, I guess that's one of the remnants of growing up in
a religious household. That was one of the things that you just didn't do.
You didn't have kids out of wedlock. So if we're talking about rules, I
guess that's one of those ones.

Rebecca:

Exactly. You're not supposed to have kids out of wedlock, that's bad. But
it's not like it doesn't happen, because it does. It happens. All the
things happen in all the religions, in my opinion. But they're just
[inaudible 00:24:05], you don't talk about it. It's just swept under the
rug. It's fine. We're all good.

TaVona:

Exactly. So if in your religion, it was more about, don't worry about going
to college. Get a man and get married and have the babies [inaudible
00:24:25]. What was it like for you to then... Did you have a career after
college or did you go to college?

Rebecca:

Well, I mean, I had a baby right away, right? Because that's just what
you're supposed to do. There's no birth control. You just get pregnant
right away. So I was like, I'm following the rules and I did have a career.
I did. I had a part-time career. I was a CPA. So I never had a full time
career really though. Do you know what I mean? I was-

TaVona:

Then it wasn't very... Well, I mean, I guess you did say it was weird for
you to become a life coach, but it wasn't weird for you to have a career.
Tell me about.

Rebecca:

That. No, my husband... Here's the thing that's interesting about that
story. So I remember when I first told my husband I want to get a job. We
had the baby, we graduated from college. So I already had a baby and then I
wanted to get a job and he was so worried about that. He called his mom.
He's like, she wants to get a job.

TaVona:

Who is this alien I've married?

Rebecca:

Well, I mean, but we hadn't really talked... I guess we hadn't really
discussed that enough before he got married. But he was super concerned
because was it right for me to have a babysitter and go work? I had a baby.
Anyways, and I just said, I'm going to go crazy. I'm a manifesting
generator so I can't just stay home and take care of a baby. It just wasn't
working for me. I did try really hard. It just... I was bored out of my
mind.

Rebecca:

So anyways... So no.. You know what, its so interesting because since... So
then I did. I went out and got a job and then we kept having kids. But he
became really supportive of me working and he didn't care after that. In
fact, then when I went to be a life coach, he was really supportive of
that.

Rebecca:

But now it's like, well, when are you going to support me so I can retire.
So now he's totally flipped the script. He wants to retire. So I... So yes,
we've been through the whole range of stuff but not... I would say he is
not the norm from our church. Most guys would be like, that is
unacceptable. Like, no. Like, you don't need a job.

Rebecca:

And actually, the funny thing is it holds me back as well. I think there's
this deep seated belief about money. The man earns the money. The man takes
care of the family. And it has really been a roadblock in my way, in me
even having big goals about money. I'm like, I'm a woman. I'm not...
There's this deep seated thing about me being a woman. Where's my place in
the world? What am I here to do, right? It's this strangest thing that I've
been dealing with myself.

TaVona:

But I think that's interesting that, that story is there about you being a
woman and what's supposed to happen and stuff like that. And I wonder maybe
it's a religious thing. Because I think culturally at least-

Rebecca:

It is a culture.

TaVona:

...for those who can't see me, I'm black. And I... My mom raised me to be
very independent. She was like, you always need to be able to take care of
yourself, point blank and period. And so whether or not that was part of
the religion, being able to sustain myself, superseded whatever was taught
in the religion.

Rebecca:

That was not taught to me. Not at all. My mom thought we needed to go to
college and have a degree. There's something to fall back on, kind of like
that. Do you know what I mean? But it wasn't taught that... Like in a
strong way like that. And then I learned about human design. I'm like, oh
my gosh. I'm designed this way. No wonder I've had these questions and
doubts and... I want to study all this stuff, but yet we were not
encouraged to study outside of what we were being told at church. You don't
go study on the side, right?

Rebecca:

Because now the devil's going to start talking to you or whatever's going
to happen, it's going to be bad. So, just stay in the church and just
listen to what they say. You don't need to go read the Bible by yourself or
all of that, right? But I had this super curiosity. I'm a line one like you
are, right? So I'm like, but what if I want to study religion?

TaVona:

Wait a minute. They said, you're not supposed to study by yourself? You're
not supposed to read the Bible by yourself?

Rebecca:

Well, there were these women, I remember specifically, this was when I was
in my thirties probably. I remember this group of women that was getting
together once a week in the morning. There was just a small group, maybe
three or four of them. They were reading the Bible by themselves. And I
remember so many whispers about that. Oh my gosh, that's so terrible, that
they're doing that. They're not going to understand what they're doing.
They're going to get off. They're going to take it wrong. I don't know. All
the things that...

Rebecca:

And I'm like, that was the judgment. The judgment about what people want to
do, I can't deal with that part. There's so much judgment about all the
ways people behave or don't. They're not doing it right, they're not in the
boundaries. They're out of whatever.

TaVona:

But that's so interesting because we had... I was raised with Bible study
in Bible study Bibles and you were supposed to read on your own.

Rebecca:

Not really. We'd go to... There was Bible class once a week. You go to
Bible class and listen to the leader who talks about whatever part of the
Bible we're reading. You don't do it on your own unless you're the minister
maybe. The minister is getting words from God.

TaVona:

I mean, that's fascinating to me. I mean, all of a sudden under the
umbrella of Christ... Both of us are under the umbrella of Christianity but
we... I was taught that we had to study and know the Bible and understand
the Bible. And of course there's Bible study and Sunday school and all of
that stuff too but you get your own understanding and wisdom and pray about
it and stuff too. So I think that's really interesting-

Rebecca:

That is not how you do it. No, it's not.

TaVona:

It is not how you do it.

Rebecca:

I mean...

TaVona:

So wait a minute, do you own your own Bible?

Rebecca:

I do. We it's-

TaVona:

Okay, good. But why do you need to own a Bible if you're not allowed to
read it?

Rebecca:

But there was... Here's the thing TaVona, there's no rule that says you
can't read it. However, you don't need to. Just believe your sins'
forgiven. Just have a childlike faith, listen in church. You don't need to
go study. That's what... The knowledge doesn't mean anything. Knowledge
isn't good actually.

TaVona:

Wait, but what was Wednesday? Wednesday wasn't Bible study?

Rebecca:

There was Bible... It was called Bible class. So all the families would go
there and just... They'd read some passages from the Bible and have a
discussion about it, that's it. Then you have cookies and coffee. It was
more of a get together in my mind than really delving into anything-

TaVona:

But that is so interesting to me. Because my dad will always be like, can't
think of how you rephrase it but basically, like a church where they're
really about teaching you the Bible instead of just the whole motivational
speech church.

Rebecca:

I mean, it's... That's an interesting topic. So what I want to say too is,
I'm thinking that this is all from my perspective. So I don't know what
other people would say, who grew up in the same time, maybe they're the
same age as me, whatever. I don't know what their perspective is on that.
It's another thing. You don't really have conversations about this stuff.
You just... It is how it is. I remember asking one time, why can't I go to
a school dance? I wanted to go to a dance. I've wanted to dance my whole
life. I'm not allowed to dance, it's sinful. I want to go to a dance.

Rebecca:

Well, women and men... They didn't really have a good answer. So I never
really got a good answer. So I stopped asking questions. I'm like, why do I
even bother asking questions? There's no answers for them. Just believe,
just have a childlike faith. Believe your sins' forgiven and you're going
to go to heaven. But if I wear nail Polish to church, people are going to
look at me funny. My mom and dad are going to really get mad at me and I
can't do that, right? There was just the rules and just... It drives me
crazy and I'm upset.

Rebecca:

I mean now at this time in my life, I think about having my kids grow up in
the same environment because I didn't have the courage to be me and to
send... And just to decide what I believed and then go do that. Instead, I
felt compelled, I guess, to stay. I didn't know what else would be outside
of it, right? So it's difficult.

TaVona:

So how has going into coaching affected, would you say, your belief or has
it affected your belief?

Rebecca:

Well, for one thing, I opened up to different perspectives. You know how
we're taught to hold space, right? For anything. Well, when my son died of
suicide... First of all, a lot opened up to me after I had to research
about suicide and depression and mental illness and... You know what I
mean? All this stuff. And it's like oh.

Rebecca:

So I think I opened up to a lot of perspective and why people are suffering
and all of that. So that opened up to more... Because now I became a coach
and I learned how to hold space for anything anybody was going through.
Because it felt to me like the worst thing you could ever go through, is
the suicide of your child. I couldn't think of anything worse. I was just
like, this has got to be the worst thing, right? And so then people would
tell me all kinds of stuff, right? It was just like a magnet for secrets.
It was just like, do...

Rebecca:

Well, I didn't want to tell anybody else this but... You know what I mean?
And I just became open to, you know what? Humans are humans are humans and
why are we supposed to believe like in our church for instance? Why should
I believe that I'm just a sin falling person? If somebody needs to save
me... That is what could drive you to suicide. You're just so terrible.
You're so bad. You're no good anyways. Jesus needs to save you. You can't
do anything good, right? I don't know. I'm like, I want a better outlook on
life. Let's be more positive. Like, no, actually we're valuable people.

Rebecca:

As human beings, we're valuable. We're here for a purpose and a reason and
that's not what's preached, not in our church. Maybe it is in other
churches.

TaVona:

I think it depends, right? Because I mean, it depends on... It really just
depends. Because there's the fire and brimstone churches. And then there
are the, what I call the money and motivational churches. And so you get a
very different-

Rebecca:

Yeah. I wouldn't say ours is either though. I don't think it's fire and
brimstone. I've seen the fire and brimstone pastors. That's not us. We're
not. What is he doing hitting the gavel or something? I don't know. It
looks like, yeah. We don't do that. It's not a lot of show, but it really
is a thing about you should feel very sad and very poor and very repentant,
like you said. Go to communion, get your sins forgiven. You're going to
feel so much better. I'm like, yeah. I see how it's...

Rebecca:

When I feel like I've done something I might say I'm sorry to my husband.
But do I have to feel sorry for being human all the time? I don't know...
Just in general that I'm in this sin condition state, I was born a sinner.
I was going to be a sinner. I'm going to die a sinner.

Rebecca:

Now my son died by suicide. I really had to question that belief. Because
he was a perfectionist. He was a straight A student. He had everything
going for him. Why did he die by suicide? I thought about the church stuff.
I was like, he probably didn't feel good enough for one thing. We're
constantly pounding in our head how sinful we are. I mean, how can you... I
just... After that happened, that didn't sit well with me anymore to listen
to that message.

TaVona:

Yeah. I think it's really interesting to hear us talk and share and compare
our stories of being raised in the church and thinking about like, these
are really just beliefs. Thoughts that we've had for a very long time that
we are now questioning, challenging, undoing, unwinding and all of that
stuff. And so I guess, the big question that lingers for me is, if someone
is listening to this and they're like, I'm in a place where I want to
question some of these beliefs that I was raised with, what do you think
the first step might be?

Rebecca:

Right. I mean, this is what I'm thinking is that sometimes it can be scary
even to question your beliefs. Because you're like, no, something bad's
going to happen. And it can feel like there's nobody to talk to about it.
So I think finding somebody safe to just talk to about it, just to allow
yourself to talk about it, I think is really important.

Rebecca:

Because I can't find anybody who I think of. A few friends called me out in
the last few months and said, where have you been? And they went to dinner
with me and they really wanted to know why I'm not in church. And then that
created a conversation, but it wasn't a safe conversation. Afterwards, I
think about, what they wanted to do was argue and tell me, you need to
come... No, that's not right.

Rebecca:

So it's not a safe conversation sometimes within family or friends that are
in the church that you're trying to question the beliefs about. That's what
I've determined. But I am so grateful. I have life coach friends. And so,
this, it's amazing, right? Because we can hold space for each other to have
honest conversations. And we just say what we are, what we feel. It's
amazing. Without people getting defensive, right? That's what happens. They
get defensive.

Rebecca:

So this is why I'm holding off having a conversation with my parents and my
sister who are very deep in and believe whatever deeply. I'm like, first of
all, I need to disconnect myself from the idea that there's... I have an
expected outcome for them. There is no expectation. I need to say what I
need to say and there's no defensiveness. Nobody... I'm not going to fight
about it.

Rebecca:

So I'm trying to work through that right now. But I think it's important to
just realize for people that other people feel the same way you do. But
they don't want to talk about it either, right? It's like if you knew who
the safe people were, that'd be great. But sometimes you don't know. You
have to go find therapists, coaches, people who are willing to allow you to
just talk.

TaVona:

Yeah. And I think that's what you and I are trying to cultivate is, safe
spaces for people to just be themselves and talk about what's going on for
them. So that they can decide for themselves in that supported place what
is right for them?

Rebecca:

Does it look like I have a halo around me or something right now?

TaVona:

It does.

Rebecca:

I didn't even notice in my camera.

TaVona:

It actually came when you started talking about your son.

Rebecca:

That's so fascinating. Maybe he's here, coming in through the window. Okay,
turn it a little bit that way. There, now you can see me. So I guess, we
can always have another part of this conversation, but what is it TaVona?
Let's just each talk about what we do a little bit before we end this
conversation. So what is it that you are cultivating? What's in your
community or what are you offering for women?

TaVona:

Well, yeah. A couple of things. One, I just really am starting a lot of
conversations around what it means to be a woman in business, in the
business of coaching, in doing online business. Because I think we have
plenty of spaces for us to talk about the business of coaching in terms of
marketing, sales and visibility and thus and so forth. But we don't really
get to talk about the other aspects of what it really means to be the
person who's running the business.

TaVona:

Because that affects us when we are the face of the brand and the business
and it... We are solopreneurs. You can't really separate life and business.
So within the coaching and conversations community, I want to have more
conversations like this. Like, okay, if you're feeling some kind of way
about your religion and it's affecting your ability to be able to run your
business because you don't feel like you have somewhere to talk about that,
then there's a space for you if you want to start that conversation and be
held and heard without judgment.

TaVona:

In terms of what my specialty is, I'm a business coach with a specialty in
launching. And for me, that is also really a mission based specialty
because I think there are people who want to get their message out to way
more people than they have access to right now.

TaVona:

And whenever you try to do something big like a launch, it will bring up
your shit and a lot of trauma and a lot of thoughts and a lot of fears and
all of those kinds of things. And so in that space, I just really want to
help people who want to do business in a bigger way, be able to do it
without being so triggered and do it in a way that feels safe and supported
and aligned for them. So that's what I'm up to.

Rebecca:

That's awesome.

TaVona:

Just teaching launches in a simple and stress free way.

Rebecca:

Yeah. And so in my podcast show notes, I will have a link to your... I
think you sent me a link, so I'll put it in the podcast show notes. And
then to wrap this up, I am obviously, my work has to do with human design.
But what I'm finding right now is, I'm really researching again. I'm in the
research mode about how does our human design relate to religion and how
some of us get really...

Rebecca:

Because I've talked to other women who even if they did grow up in a
very... I would say my daughter is similar. She's only 23 and she was very
courageous about just at 17 saying, I don't believe in that. And off she
went by her own. And I'm like, wait, why didn't I do that when I was 17?
I'm really curious. Where is it that it shows how we might get even be more
open to being conditioned and just... Well, for instance, line fours,
right? So there's several things.

Rebecca:

So I'm bringing in 2022, I want there to be more conversation with me and
other people about religion. And I'm probably... And somebody gave me this
idea, a projector told me, you should form a community on YouTube. I'm
like, anyways. So I'm going to probably have a YouTube channel that's more
focused on human design and religion. It's like the focus of it, which will
be fun. This is going to bring together all these things. I'm really
interested in doing that.

Rebecca:

But right now, my work is in human... I do human design readings and I also
now do quantum alignment sessions, tapping with human design so that we can
release some of this stuff. This is new for me right now because I just got
certified and human design tapping is called quantum alignment session. But
yeah, so I'm excited to...

Rebecca:

2022, I think is just going to be a major, big change again for me. Every
year I say this and it really happens every year. We all get to a new
place, right? So, that's what I'm offering. So I'm going to in the show
notes, put that stuff. So thank you so much TaVona. I hope that this was
helpful for your audience too.

Rebecca:

If you enjoy listening to this podcast, please go subscribe so that you get
notified of all the future goodies that are coming along. While you're
there, please leave me a review and let know what you think. So excited to
share this with you and can't wait to talk to you next time. Bye.