Disfellowshipped by the Jehovah’s Witnesses with Miranda Davidson

Rebecca:

Welcome to Beautifully Bloomed, the podcast where we explore how to break
you out of the box of rules and beliefs that are holding you back from the
life you are meant to live. I'm your host, Rebecca Tervo. Join me as I
share mindset tools, coaching conversations, and human design to help you
uncover your unique gifts and create the life, relationships, and business
you desire.

Rebecca:

Today, I am joined by Miranda Davidson, who was a former Jehovah's Witness
who left in her thirties. This is the reason she's on our podcast today to
talk about how she grew up in that religion and how she decided to leave.
I'm really excited to have her here. Thank you so much for joining me,
Miranda.

Miranda:

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

Rebecca:

Yay. I'm excited too. My first question always is, what were, so I know you
said Jehovah's Witness and some people might not even know what that is,
how did you grow up? What were the beliefs or the doctrine or was there
rules? What was that for you?

Miranda:

Okay, they are very Bible-focused, but their version of the Bible in
Christianity is pretty strict. There's no celebrating birthdays. There's no
celebrating holidays. No Christmas. No New Year's or Mother's Day or 4th of
July or Thanksgiving, any of it and no voting, no serving in the military,
no flag salute, National Anthem. They take it very seriously that they are
separate from any rural government or any other organization.

Miranda:

It's very much an isolated group that only mingles among themselves. You're
really discouraged from having close associations with outsiders, even your
own family members or neighbors or schoolmates. If they're not believers,
the teaching is that there is an impending judgment day and that God will
be bringing destruction upon the globe and all non-Jehovah's witnesses are
likely to perish. That's constantly being pushed as any day now, imminent.

Miranda:

It's kind of weird. Yeah, you can't go play with your neighbor, Sally,
because she's probably going to die from fire balls from heaven tomorrow. A
little bit a different outlook. You see people as outsiders. You really
tend to only associate with those within the community.

Rebecca:

Yeah. What's the leadership like? Is there a head guy or is there a bunch
of head guys? I assume they're guys.

Miranda:

Yes. Big surprise, right? As with most Bible-based organizations, it's very
patriarchal. Men have the leadership roles. The original founder was in the
late 1800 and was an [inaudible 00:02:46] guy. The leadership passed down
to a few other individual guys, but during my lifetime it's been a
committee. There were at least seven to nine different committee members
that were the leadership.

Rebecca:

Oh, okay.

Miranda:

Governing body that made the decisions.

Rebecca:

Yeah. Was there any dress code or like the ways you have to dress or behave
or things you can't do right like [inaudible 00:03:10]?

Miranda:

Absolutely.

Rebecca:

Just curious.

Miranda:

Of course. What would a patriarchal community be without dress codes and
rules? There was different standards for official church activities
compared to outside. If you were attending services or going out knocking
on doors, which we were expected to do, 10 hours a month, roughly, as a
woman, I would have to wear a dress or skirt, at least covers my knees,
knee length and my shoulders. Not the most conservative. Others are more
strict, but pretty conservative.

Miranda:

Men would be required to wear suit pants, slacks, dress shirt, and a tie.
If there are any official church business and then if they're on stage
giving a sermon, they have wear jacket as well. Men were not allowed to
have beards or goatees, any facial hair besides the mustache. No one was
allowed to have artificial hair colors, like purple or green or something
like that. You could wear your hair long or short. You could wear makeup as
long as it wasn't too extreme outlandish.

Miranda:

Outside of church, free normal dress, I would say. You couldn't wear
something really skimpy. I could not wear a dress that was shorter than
knee length, but I could wear shorts and I could wear [inaudible 00:04:32]
top and throw a bathing suit, regular bathing suit. No bikinis, of course.

Rebecca:

Okay. Modesty a little bit, right?

Miranda:

Yeah. Yeah. Basically, what you would think of, of 1950s standard nuclear
family kind of American culture, that was pretty much the ideal that was.

Rebecca:

Yeah. It's like, the ideal is to get married in the church to somebody who
believes the same ways you do, have children, is that kind of it?

Miranda:

I'm surprised only not on the children [inaudible 00:05:05] Bible-based
groups do emphasize that, but with the whole judgment day is tomorrow and
fiery destruction, a lot of people in that community chose not to have
children or were encouraged to wait until after judgment day when they're
expecting the Earth to be restored to a garden of Eden paradise condition.

Rebecca:

Okay.

Miranda:

A lot of postponing, your hopes and dreams. Don't get your career now.
Don't have kids now. Don't start a retirement fund now. This whole world's
going to end probably tomorrow.

Rebecca:

Okay. They've been waiting for it to end since 18 something.

Miranda:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like 1870s is I think, expectation was 1914, I think and
then they've [inaudible 00:05:52] since then, they've been [inaudible
00:05:53].

Rebecca:

Yeah, it's interesting because it's almost like postponing your whole life,
but that is, I think in a lot of religious groups, the idea is, "Oh, we are
just here temporarily." I mean, we didn't have that belief you just said
about the Earth. I don't know. We're not going to be waiting to be restored
to the Earth or something. We're waiting for Jesus to come back and yeah
but it's like what the whole thing that you said that resonates with me is
like, "Well, it's not really important to focus on what's going on in your
life right now. Follow these rules, believe this, and you're getting to
heaven. That's the goal. The goal is getting to heaven. In your case, it
was to get to this new paradise Earth?

Miranda:

Right, right. The paradise Earth, which, yeah, I mean [inaudible 00:06:41].
If you're living forever, it doesn't matter whether it's distant realm or
if it's on this realm, you're going to be perfect. You have everything you
want. Everything's good.

Rebecca:

Right. Let's not bother with people who aren't believing this way because
they're just-

Miranda:

Because they're going to be gone. They're going to be gone anyway. It
doesn't matter. Don't start going to college because there's no way that
system will last for four more years. There's no time.

Rebecca:

So interesting.

Miranda:

Well that's been there forever. Once you make it to paradise and you'll
have eternity. You can study [inaudible 00:07:11]. You can learn anything
you want. You can explore hobbies. You can finally learn to play ukulele
then. Whatever you want to do you can but now you've got to work, work,
work all the time.

Rebecca:

You've got to work to try to tell other people is what it sounds like?

Miranda:

Yes, yes, yes. You have to spend all your time studying and making sure
you're doing the right things and then giving out to try to warn people,
let them know judgment is coming and try to save them. A lot of pressure, a
lot of fear, obligation and guilt, which are the three big factors to look
for the spot that a group is maybe called a cult or a high control
organization, if they're using those to motivate [inaudible 00:07:49].

Rebecca:

Yeah. I've heard of the term high demand religion. I would think that, I
mean, definitely this seems to fall in to them.

Miranda:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

Now, how does it feel for you? When did you have to start knocking on
doors? Because this is what I think of when I think of Jehovah's Witnesses.
I'm like, "Oh yeah, those are the people that knock on the door." That's
all I [inaudible 00:08:07].

Miranda:

Right, because that is their primary thing. Every member is expected to.
That's very different than say Mormons who pledge to do like a one-year or
two-year mission [inaudible 00:08:20] that period of [inaudible 00:08:22]
life. They do their door knocking and then they're done. They have
[inaudible 00:08:25] but there is no concept of that is from the time
you're born. I took my babies out there, newborn, a week old, two weeks
old. I would just take them out with me knocking on doors.

Miranda:

My mother joined when I was a year old, pretty much from the time I was a
toddler. Preschool, I was going with her. As I could read, I had my own
hitch, my own spiel. I would memorize a certain scripture I was going to
use and have a little pamphlet. The earliest I remember is age four that I
had my little memorized presentation. I was knocking on doors myself and
saying [inaudible 00:09:03].

Rebecca:

What? When you were four years old?

Miranda:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). My two oldest daughters were the same way because I
was teaching them the same and I was taking them with me. They would, even
if they just say a few words, like here's [inaudible 00:09:16] about
paradise. You get lots of praise because you go back to the car and there's
four or five of your peers that are waiting for you and they all tell you
did a good job and [inaudible 00:09:25], there's a lot of positive
reinforcements within the community.

Rebecca:

Yeah. Yeah. Did it, I mean, when did you start having doubts about this?

Miranda:

Well, I was, disfellowship, excommunicated, shunned for a few years in my
early adulthood [crosstalk 00:09:45].

Rebecca:

Well, what's that about or why? Curious.

Miranda:

I'll say, I have my first few doubts then and I didn't really pursue that
until later, but-

Rebecca:

Yeah. Why'd you get excommunicated?

Miranda:

Well, there's a whole long list of things you can't do. Whenever you choose
to get baptized, which I was 14 when I got baptized, I knew what the rules
were and what I wasn't allowed to do. That includes drugs and smoking and
watching R rated movies and voting, celebrating Christmas, going to church
but of course the most common sin that gets a lot of people is having sex
with someone to whom you're not married, which what happened for me.

Miranda:

The church elders, they had a secret trial in the back of the church with
three elders questioning me about all the gruesome details. They need to
know lots of very specific details about it and read a lot of scriptures,
prayed about it. At that point, they had to decide whether to forgive and
just privately discipline me or to excommunicate me. That's what they did.
They decided that, [inaudible 00:10:55] my first offense. I had been a
pretty good kid. I was homeschooled. I never watched a rated movie. I
followed all the rules [inaudible 00:11:05].

Rebecca:

Yeah. You followed all the rules, but what [inaudible 00:11:09].

Miranda:

Except that was kind of a big rule that I didn't follow.

Rebecca:

Right.

Miranda:

I knew that was the consequences. I had met someone that I worked with and
started dating secretly and then yeah, I was found out and confessed and
they-

Rebecca:

Secretly dating, because you weren't allowed to date him?

Miranda:

Well, yeah. I mean he wasn't in the church.

Rebecca:

Okay. Yeah.

Miranda:

[inaudible 00:11:31] I met at work. I was working [inaudible 00:11:33] at a
local restaurant, like you do when you're 18.

Rebecca:

Right. This is normal behavior for 18-year-olds, but what then made you
feel like you had to go confess? Why? I mean, you could have not, right? Or
could you? I don't know.

Miranda:

I don't think. I could have not. I mean, first off, my mom confronted me or
suspected. My mom confronted me. I confessed to her first and then she took
me right to the church all by herself. [inaudible 00:12:02] them. Then,
they went through the whole process, invited me to their trial, which I
went to and didn't know you're, I guess, supposed to cry and they'll find
you sorry. I didn't cry at that time. I was pretty stoic. I guess that's
why they decided I wasn't proving that I was sorry enough.

Miranda:

They went ahead and disfellowshipped me, which means during the next church
service, they pause the service midway through and somebody walks up on
stage to make an announcement to say that, "Miranda Davidson is no longer
one of Jehovah's Witnesses." Then, the entire room of like 70 people gasps,
turns to stare at me in horror. Then, from that moment on, I don't exist to
them. They can't speak. They can't make eye contact with me. They can't eat
in the same room that I'm in. It's just like, I become completely
invisible.

Rebecca:

But then you just stop going to church, right? Like [crosstalk 00:12:53].

Miranda:

Yeah. I was living with my parents then and they wanted me to keep going to
church and apply for, write an official petition for forgiveness to get
readmitted but you still have to go attend church services for at least six
months, but they won't give you an exact number of how long you have to do
that. They just couldn't deal with that.

Miranda:

It was really stressful because I had always been a good role model before
that. It was really hard to accept that I had that role as the sinner and
[inaudible 00:13:22] example. I just got a job and moved out and got my own
apartment and didn't know a soul in the world except for the guy that I'd
been seeing.

Rebecca:

That must have been hard.

Miranda:

Yeah, just started some scratch. I turned 19 that summer right after that
but yeah, I was just, okay, I'm going to figure this out. I figured it out.

Rebecca:

It takes a lot of courage, I think, because you grew up in such a sheltered
space.

Miranda:

Yeah. [inaudible 00:13:49] okay, well I guess I can do Christmas now, I
guess? [inaudible 00:13:56], let's see what that's all about. I'm a sinner
and judgment day is coming anyway, but what else was going to happen? I
started to experiment with worldly things like drinking and I didn't really
cut loose much. I was still pretty responsible because I knew I didn't have
a fallback. I can't really move back in with my parents. They don't even
speak to me.

Miranda:

I have to keep my job. I can't try drugs. My friends are like, "Hey, do you
want to try weed?" I'm like, "No, no. I can't take a risk. I have to be
responsible." [inaudible 00:14:31] my job, I'm going to pay my rent. I'm
going to figure out how credit scores, work and taxes and I'm going to do
it and I did.

Rebecca:

Yeah. I'm curious, how does it feel then because your family wasn't able to
talk to you or did they talk to you?

Miranda:

No, they didn't [inaudible 00:14:48] allowed, which is necessary family
business. They contacted me when each of my grandparents was dying. During
that three-year span, I lost my grandma and grandpa. That was the only
[inaudible 00:15:01] my parents was like, "Hey, grandpa's in the hospital.
He's on life support. If you want to come up here, all the family's here."

Rebecca:

Yeah. You were allowed to go to that?

Miranda:

Yeah, because my parents were the only Jehovah Witness in their family.
None of the extended family, aunts and uncles or anyone else was and none
of them knew about my status because my parents were embarrassed and
ashamed of that and they didn't want to know that I had disgraced the
family. I just kept my mouth shut and pretended things were okay at the
funeral. I hadn't seen my family besides that.

Rebecca:

Wow. It's interesting because when you're cut off from the community,
that's all you've ever known really.

Miranda:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

Isn't that, it must feel just, I mean, I'm thinking about the Amish when
they get shunned. It seems a similar thing.

Miranda:

Yes. Yeah.

Rebecca:

[inaudible 00:15:53] out now.

Miranda:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Rebecca:

You're in outer darkness, just kidding. The people in this group are like,
"She's in outer darkness. You can't talk to her," or like that kind of
thing.

Miranda:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I lost everyone that I had ever known, everyone that I'd
been spending time with had ever had any kind of social interaction with.

Rebecca:

That just feels so traumatic, just even [inaudible 00:16:15].

Miranda:

Yeah. I mean it's like, I don't know. Sometimes, I feel it's almost like
moving to a different country and some of my closest friends are immigrants
because they feel like they relate to that journey of like, you walked away
from this completely different life and now you're here [inaudible
00:16:29] my city and stay. I'm still here, but it's not a place that I
grew up in. This is not culture, not the same world, that I knew.

Rebecca:

The culture is super different. I get that.

Miranda:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

When you're trying to then become a part of a culture, you didn't grow up
in it. It's just like.

Miranda:

Right. I don't have the collective experiences. I don't have the shared
memories. I don't have the, "Oh, hey, do you remember prom?" "No."
"Remember the eight-year-old birthday party?" "No."

Rebecca:

Yeah. You didn't have any birthday parties.

Miranda:

No.

Rebecca:

But you did keep track of how old you were, obviously?

Miranda:

Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca:

But you just don't-

Miranda:

It's funny, I have a good memory for numbers and I could remembered
everyone's birthday. Like someone could just mention it in passing, I have
this file like, February fourth and I could think of three people that, "Oh
yes. My gym teacher said that was her birthday and my cousin's friend."
[inaudible 00:17:20] acknowledge publicly or ever say happy your birthday
to someone.

Rebecca:

Yeah. It's so interesting. I'm thinking, because we talked about how you're
a four, six generator and many of my listeners understand human design.
[inaudible 00:17:34] is so much about community and connection and it's
about stability. I'm thinking there was even this more like this unstable
feeling of now what? I had this stable place, right. You feel safe and
secure and there's community and connection. All of a sudden, there's no
stability. Now, there's no community. No connection. It's like, and even
the finances it's like uh-oh, I'm kicked out. Now, I'm on my own, right?

Miranda:

Right.

Rebecca:

Where's the safety net, like you said? Wow. Right?

Miranda:

I guess, I've been, I don't know. I should show you my whole chart. You
should look it up but I have a good ability to manage resources, to attract
resources and things just somehow work out. I applied for different jobs
[inaudible 00:18:22] happened to be in a small town bank and just hanging
out in the bank, I was able to learn all the things I needed to know. I
would just go make a cup of coffee and be like, "Oh, hey Jess, you work in
escrow, right? What is that all about? What's escrow?

Rebecca:

That's so great.

Miranda:

You know?

Rebecca:

Yeah. Yes. You had an interest in going to work and you had the energy to
go to work, which is great as a generator. You [inaudible 00:18:49] to work
anyway. This work-

Miranda:

Yeah. Yeah. But I'm just lucky that that's the job I had and I was able to
learn before instead of learning the hard way I was able to say, "Hey,
what's a credit score all about? What does that even mean?

Rebecca:

Did you go to college after that?

Miranda:

Yeah. Before that or after that?

Rebecca:

Well, because you said as a Jehovah's Witness, you weren't really
encouraged to go to college.

Miranda:

That is true. I [inaudible 00:19:14] caveat. My father was not a full
member of Jehovah's Witness. He encouraged me to go to school while I still
lived at home. I did an early graduating high school program and finished
at 16. Then, I did an associate degree at the local community college while
I still lived with my parents from age 16 to 18.

Rebecca:

Well, you did have something. That's awesome.

Miranda:

I did have that resource. I had a computer science associate degree,
two-year degree.

Rebecca:

Amazing. Yes. Well, because [crosstalk 00:19:44].

Miranda:

[crosstalk 00:19:44] was starting out.

Rebecca:

Yeah, well, because some women in these kind of religions, would never be
encouraged to go to college.

Miranda:

Right, right. Yeah. A lot of my peers weren't [inaudible 00:19:54]. I feel
that-

Rebecca:

Especially women. Now, I think in Jehovah's Witnesses though, it's not just
women. Is it women and men?

Miranda:

Yeah. No, it's very much something to be ashamed of if anyone gets more
than vocational training. If someone gets a full bachelor's degree or more,
it's considered that they don't have faith in God. They're putting their
faith in themselves instead of their faith in God.

Rebecca:

Yeah, exactly.

Miranda:

Everyone is encouraged to work the minimum amount necessary and to put the
most amount of time out knocking doors. They have constant testimonials or
people giving their experiences of turning down scholarships, turning down
full-time job opportunities, and saying, "Hey, I could have been the top
engineer in the country, but instead, I clean doctor's offices part-time at
night so that I can spend my daytime knocking on doors." Then, every
[inaudible 00:20:47].

Rebecca:

That service aspect, the service to the church is very important.

Miranda:

Yeah. Yeah. That's highly emphasized. The expected career paths are
typically trade, self-employed, there's for women typically cosmetology,
[inaudible 00:21:06], janitorial, a lot of people do window washing.

Rebecca:

Interesting. Yeah.

Miranda:

[inaudible 00:21:14].

Rebecca:

Just so you can have a part, something that's more part-time so you're
available for more "regular" hours for service.

Miranda:

Yes. Yes. Definitely, it's what's emphasized there. It was very much an
anomaly that I was allowed to and encouraged to have that computer science
degree, which-

Rebecca:

Which served you.

Miranda:

Yeah. I'm very, very grateful for, and that is [inaudible 00:21:39] that a
lot of people have. I'm very lucky as somebody who grew up in that church
to be able to have any kind of college and have that.

Rebecca:

Yeah. Now you, you were kicked out. You had this three years. Then, what
happened?

Miranda:

I started going to night classes. I'm like, "Well, I have this impulse to
work and work and do and do and the church felt [inaudible 00:22:00] in the
church, I'm like, "Eight hours a day isn't cutting it. I need to do more."
I started going to night classes to work on getting my bachelor's degree.

Miranda:

While I was there, I met a Mormon and we had this long conversation about
religion, comparing doctrines, and I just had like this rush of guilt and
shame, "Why am I messing up things with God? I need to go back to the
church and fix things and get back to my family and my community, where I
had that support network. I miss being part of that." I just decided
overnight, I'm going back. That's it.

Miranda:

I came home and told the boyfriend, which is the same original one. I told
him he needs to move out of my house. He didn't take it well. He was upset.
After three years, I thought everything was fine. "Well, what if we get
married instead? Then, we wouldn't be living in sin." Honestly, it wasn't
what I wanted, but I said, "Fine. It seemed like less conflict."

Rebecca:

You married the same boyfriend?

Miranda:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Rebecca:

Okay.

Miranda:

Yeah. Yeah. We really didn't get along. There had already been a lot of
conflict and yeah.

Rebecca:

But you got married because then could go back to the church, is that what
happened?

Miranda:

Right. It was my goal. Okay, I'm going to fix things with the church. I'm
going to fix things with God. I'm going to fix things with my families, my
community and if that's what it takes, if it's less hassle to go to the
courthouse and get married to you, than just to kick you out because you're
throwing a fit, then I guess that's what it is.

Rebecca:

Wow. Wow, okay. Now, that you're married, then your family accepted you
again or your church?

Miranda:

Exactly. I went to the court. Within months, that was around October. By
December, we were married. We were both 21 at that point. I wrote out my
letter to the church elders to let them know like, "Hey look, I'm not
sinning anymore. I fixed it. Here's why. I recognized how wrong I was and
I'm so sorry. I want back in.

Miranda:

They said it would take some time to review it. I would have to attend the
church services to show that I was serious while they're all still treating
me like I don't exist. That was super hard. That was like the most painful
part, was just like sitting through the church services. You have to like
sit on the back row, nobody can make eye contact with you. You're
surrounded by all these people that-

Rebecca:

Knows you, right?

Miranda:

They do know you. This is like, this is everybody you've ever spent time
with. You've had dinner with their houses. You went to the movies with
them. You went roller skating, like every single life event, graduation
party, and you just don't exist. It won't even, like their eyes just flying
right off you. It's so eerie.

Rebecca:

You did that for six months?

Miranda:

I did that for six months. During that time, I was working full time and
still going to college full time. I set up my schedule, I work 8:00 to
5:00, then I'll drive to the college 30 minutes away, take class from 5:30
to 7:00, and then I'll drive back just in time for the 7:30 evening church
service, [inaudible 00:24:53]. I was thinking of going to two evening
church services and the Sunday morning, as well as my full [inaudible
00:25:01] work. I already [inaudible 00:25:03] I already bought a house
[inaudible 00:25:06] 20.

Rebecca:

You were on top of it, though. Financially, yeah. Good job.

Miranda:

During that time, when I was trying to get readmitted to the church and
sitting through all these sermons, but not able to participate, just
listening. That's when I started to have some doubts about the church. I
was like, well, I'm an outsider right now. I'm allowed to research the
opposition's opinion, which as a member, you're strong, strongly
discouraged from doing that. It's anyone who has left is an agent of the
devil and he's playing with your faith.

Rebecca:

For sure.

Miranda:

During that time I did get on the internet and looked at some of the
comments of people who have left before. I did read some of their
experiences and I entertained some of the, I don't want to say
contradictory, but just some of the [inaudible 00:26:01], I guess which
what they would call it, [inaudible 00:26:05].

Rebecca:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, did you have wonder, okay, this is the rules they tell
me is the right way but then this other church says, they're the only ones
and they have these rules. Then, this other church says, this is the only
way and they have these rules. They're all different rules, but they're all
the way like [inaudible 00:26:24].

Miranda:

Yeah. I never considered maybe a different branch of Christianity is more
correct to the Bible but I was looking at like, "Well, is this really true?
Are the teachings really right? Are they really based on the Bible? Some of
the things may be questionable, but is there still enough think this is
probably mostly majority true or the most likely truest thing.

Miranda:

During that time though, I never questioned deep enough to doubt the
historical accuracy of the Bible itself. I was still a hundred percent
taking every word written in the Bible as a hundred percent history fact.
Exactly as it's written. That's what happened. I was questioning, do
Jehovah's witnesses follow that? Are they the ones that are closest to
that? It was close enough for me to feel I'm convinced that this is the
closest to write enough for me to go through the ordeal to get readmitted
and get my community back.

Rebecca:

Yeah, because you did, right? You went back, [inaudible 00:27:25].

Miranda:

I did. I did. Then, I spent another decade. I spent another decade
[inaudible 00:27:30]. From 21 to 31, I was back in. During that time, I had
two children. I quit working full time to stay home with my kids. I signed
up as a pioneer in the church, which is one of their higher ranking
members, [inaudible 00:27:47] volunteer to commit to 70 hours a month
instead of the normal 10 hours a month going out, knocking on doors and
[inaudible 00:27:54] people.

Rebecca:

Wow, 70 hours of knocking on doors?

Miranda:

Yeah. I did a one year pledge for that, which kind of [inaudible 00:28:02]
little bit of a higher, not really status and rank, but you get a little
more respect, a little more recognition within the community, a little more
status, but nothing official. It's not like they're paying you or anything.

Rebecca:

Right.

Miranda:

Bragging rights. They send you to a special two-week school at the end of
your one year where you get to sit in a classroom for two weeks getting an
extra book that everyone else doesn't have and gets to do extra Bible study
about it.

Rebecca:

Right. I mean, your job though is to convert people, right?

Miranda:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

Did you keep number, tallying how many people I converted and all of that?

Miranda:

My whole lifetime in, I never actually converted one.

Rebecca:

Okay. That's super fascinating.

Miranda:

Also, well hold on, except for the one that I married [inaudible 00:28:48].

Rebecca:

Okay.

Miranda:

[inaudible 00:28:49] it wasn't really [inaudible 00:28:51] anyway, but it's
like, it's just along with the ride.

Rebecca:

All the knocking on doors for how many years?

Miranda:

Yeah. I mean, [inaudible 00:29:01] until 31, subtract the three that I
missed, a lot of them.

Rebecca:

A lot of knocking on doors?

Miranda:

Uh-huh (affirmative). We definitely, we had to keep very meticulous
records. You write down how many hours you're out, how many books you give
to people. How many little pamphlets like different, okay, this was a
30-page for sure. This was a monthly magazine issue. You have all these
records and how many times do you go back and talk with the same person?
You got to count that. Different category, that's a return visit.

Miranda:

If you sit down and do a formal study, you're reading one chapter at a time
with somebody. [inaudible 00:29:38] them. There's all these different
categories. The [inaudible 00:29:42] will split and then dropped them in
the box. You give it to the guy in charge, [inaudible 00:29:46] at the end
of the month. Other quarterly meetings in there, regional guy comes through
and reviews him. All right, your return visits are [inaudible 00:29:53]
20%. You need to work on this. It's kind of like the sales.

Rebecca:

It is sales. Yeah. Definitely.

Miranda:

It is. [crosstalk 00:29:58] without anyone getting commissioned. You're
volunteering your time. You're volunteering your car, your gas money,
everything. Just go out and drive around. I lived in the country. We were
like driving around the town. [inaudible 00:30:12] through the hills to
find some farmer, they may or may not be home.

Rebecca:

Wow. Yeah. You did a lot of service and you were in there until 31 and then
what happened? Now, why did you leave the next time? You weren't kicked
out? Were you?

Miranda:

No, no, no, no, no. I'm actually [inaudible 00:30:31] now.

Rebecca:

Okay.

Miranda:

That time, I had been reading a blog for a couple years of, so after I
finished my one year pledge, I did extra service. I only did that for one
year and I was still a stay-at-home mom, my kids are starting to get older,
my oldest was in preschool. The little one was just watching cartoons. I
was kind of losing my interest in being a stay-at-home mom. I [inaudible
00:30:57] computer a lot. I would read this blog of somebody who grew up in
the Christian evangelical world where they're encouraged to have the most
number of children. I think they call Quiver…

Rebecca:

[inaudible 00:31:09].

Miranda:

… Movement?

Rebecca:

It's the one you told me, yeah.

Miranda:

I'm just reading her life story and her experiences and her journey and
losing faith in that community and going from protesting abortion clinics
to the opposite, supporting people getting abortions and like her whole
crisis of faith. I think that was pretty influential for me. Then, I
started reading that.

Rebecca:

What was influential about it? Was it the way she changed her mind or what
was it?

Miranda:

I guess, it's hard to attack your own beliefs. It's hard to [inaudible
00:31:48] your own beliefs, but you can see something that's parallel to
your beliefs and it's easier for you to criticize that. It's easier for you
to look at that and recognize it. It's like, "Man, that was a really
controlling and patriarchal group. Glad you got out of that." [crosstalk
00:32:04].

Rebecca:

What about mine?

Miranda:

That feels a little, it's like some cognitive dissonance. It's a little,
maybe it's a little close to home. I don't know. Kind of started those
[inaudible 00:32:16] journey. It was more subconscious at that point. I
wasn't like actively aware of my doubts, but I was starting to, she
identifies a feminist and I was thinking like, "Well, I think I'd support
those values too. If I want to be a feminist, is that contradictory with my
identity as a Jehovah's Witness? Can I be both?

Miranda:

I started studying Myers Briggs personality types at that time. I'm like,
"Well, I'm an INTP and every other INTP that I can find on the internet,
they're all atheists. Maybe I'm supposed to be an atheist. I have was
having all these different thoughts about my identity and do these
different identities I'm finding, do they fit together or am I going to
have to let one of them go?

Miranda:

Again, like I said, that was all during my sudden return, the four years
that I was a stay-at-home mom, was like exactly aligned with when I stayed
home with my kids. Then, I ended up going back to work right after, but
then we moved to the country and I had chickens and it was just a
completely different life than any other chapter of life [inaudible
00:33:19] but what all kind of brought it to head was when my oldest child
was around eight or nine and ready to take the steps to like, "Hey, I want
to become an official member of the church." We work on getting baptized
and giving talks, presentations, getting up on stage, getting involved,
like committing as an official member, not just my kid is going along with
me, but actually signing up.

Miranda:

For me, I felt like I had all these flashbacks all the time whenever I got
disfellowshipped and shunned and how painful that was and knowing that's
what happens. It's really, it's pretty impossible to make it through your
teenage years and into adulthood without experiencing that in that
community. Even if my kid was one of the rare kids that never experimented
with premarital sex, with any drugs, with smoking, with drinking, any of
the forbidden things, God forbid, they turned out to be gay.

Miranda:

I've had friends that were excommunicated because they were gay and there's
option there. You're out. That's it. I was just thinking like, gosh, even
if my kids' one of the very few that meets it all the way through their
friends, they're going to have to go through that with their friends.
They're going to have to [inaudible 00:34:33]. No matter how you look at
it, it's going to be really painful.

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Miranda:

Early childhood, they're excluded at school because they can't [inaudible
00:34:42] parties, but we still have a community and they have friends
there and I feel like it offset, but the benefit, the pros and cons for
them going through their teenage years in the church just really kind of
triggered all those memories from me. I started really questioning, am I a
thousand percent convinced that this is absolutely the only one, true,
right, path, because it's going to be really painful for my kids. Is it
worth it?

Miranda:

I have to make sure it is before I let them sign up and commit to the
church. I started with my first doubt, "Well, there's something that's kind
of been in the back of my mind for a long time. I haven't really looked
into it. I'm sure we have a good explanation in one of our [inaudible
00:35:27] reference book somewhere but instead of comparing Jehovah's
Witnesses teach was in the Bible, I went with, this was in the Bible
compatible with what I know about the world.

Miranda:

Did the flood actually happen in the exact year and in the exact way as
it's taught by Jehovah's Witnesses and they have it in their reference
books. I thought like, "I've kind of wondered about that for a long time. I
never really dove in. I did. I pulled out all the reference book Jehovah
Witnesses had, and I went through everything. They have it pinned down to
an exact year and it's like 3400 BC. I'm looking at that, I'm like, "Aren't
there civilizations in buildings older than that like pyramids?" What
about, yeah, what about [inaudible 00:36:17] Aztec?

Miranda:

That's not that far back. As a kid sure, it seemed forever but like looking
at that as an adult, I'm like 3,500 BC? It's like, okay and whatever number
of animals are on this that, single animal is on this limited like space. I
was trying to read their explanations and it's like, okay. Then after that,
the number of animals that are on that have diversified to the number of
animals that exist now. I'm like, that is evolution on a massive scale.
That's not even like, no one even thinks that could happen. Within a few
thousand years, the diversity of every single ecosystem on this planet
that's existing.

Rebecca:

[inaudible 00:37:01]. Yes.

Miranda:

[inaudible 00:37:02] in Australia, they were all on the arc or they were
descended from something on the arc and they got, there was a land bridge
to Australia. As I was reading through their explanations, it was getting
more and more convoluted. I'm like, "I don't think I can reconcile this.
This is just.

Rebecca:

Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah.

Miranda:

This is just wow.

Rebecca:

Yeah. Fascinating.

Miranda:

Yeah. It's always been here and I knew there's a chapter on it. I just
hadn't really dug into that chapter. [inaudible 00:37:25] was there. I know
there's an explanation. I'm sure it makes sense. [inaudible 00:37:33]. This
does not make sense.

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Miranda:

This is wild. [inaudible 00:37:34] support this and just almost overnight,
I just like, I can't do this anymore. [inaudible 00:37:42] couple times I
like to go to church after that. I had a few assignments because we, like I
mentioned earlier, we would get up on stage and do like a demonstration.

Miranda:

Of course, men could give a sermon facing the audience. Women can face the
audience and teach men. They would have a woman assigned to you like a skit
with another woman. You would sit at a table and microphones and you would
write a little five-minute skit or dialogue where you teach another woman
something about the Bible, anyway.

Rebecca:

But you wouldn't be looking at the audience, is that what you're saying?

Miranda:

No, no, no. You could look at the audience because you can't teach the
audience, but you could do a demonstration of how you would teach another
woman.

Rebecca:

Okay.

Miranda:

A scenario like this woman is somebody at a bus stop and they're worried
about poverty. Then, I'm going to read scriptures about how God's going to
provide abundance and the [inaudible 00:38:34]. You would have to pick one
idea, write a script, time it. That was the whole thing. Well, if I said
church, you imagine like what normally people would think of as church. It
wasn't that. It's like sales using the Bible. We're practicing pitches.
We're practicing how to overcome conversation stopper. You're practicing
volume and modulation.

Rebecca:

Interesting. Yeah. It's like a training course for-

Miranda:

Right, right, right. Anyway, that was something I had been involved in a
part of, since I was eight is one of, you had to enroll in that. After I
had lost my faith in it, the only time that I went to church were to
fulfill the assignments I had already received. I had already been given my
assignment. Like, "Oh, Hey, you're doing this get next month on Thursday
for whatever topic."

Miranda:

I still showed up to fulfill my duty. I know I have an obligation. On the
schedule, I have to show up and do this, but I [inaudible 00:39:28] any
other services. I was normally regular all like three services a week but
at that point I just went like, I think once a month from October,
November, December, January, I went once a month just to do the [crosstalk
00:39:41].

Rebecca:

Is it because you were worried to tell them that you didn't want to come
anymore or you didn't feel ready yet to say that?

Miranda:

If I was to tell them I didn't want to come anymore, then I would be right
back on the secret trial and [inaudible 00:39:55] excommunicated [inaudible
00:39:56]. I don't want to participate in their trial. I've already studied
what there is to study. There's nothing they can say that's going to change
my mind. I'm going to be, "Oh, no, [inaudible 00:40:06] make sense."

Miranda:

The koalas can swim, whatever it does not make sense. I'm glad I'm over it
but I still like have my sense of duty and obligation. I'm going to show up
and fulfill what I've agreed to do, which was to get my skit the last
couple months that I had already on the schedule, but I quit going out
knocking and doors. I tried once more, but I couldn't say anything. I
didn't believe any of the stuff I was supposed to say.

Miranda:

I didn't want to give them any of our books and pamphlets. I figured it was
all nonsense. I just volunteered to go by myself, like split up, "Okay. You
take this side of the street. I take that side and two people weren't
here." I'm like, "Oh, I don't mind going by myself." When somebody opened
the door, I was just saying, "Well," I introduced myself. Instead of my
usual speech that I would go into, I just said, "We are encouraging folks
to read the Bible for themselves. That's all. Have a great day. If you have
a Bible, read it."

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Miranda:

That's all I, and go back to the car and like, "Oh, did they take any
book?" I'm like, "Oh no, they weren't interested."

Rebecca:

Yeah. Wait, is this what you're still doing today?

Miranda:

No, no, no, no, no, no.

Rebecca:

Okay.

Miranda:

No, no. I'm-

Rebecca:

[inaudible 00:41:23] then that you actually-

Miranda:

No. Yeah. No, I couldn't say like, that was the last time. I got once, once
I'm like, "I can't do this. That was all I can say. I can't just lie to
this person, but I can't go out to pretend like I have the answers to
everything because I don't anymore." These doesn't make sense anymore.

Miranda:

I quit going to church. I did the last few assignments I had agreed to do.
My husband had joined the church with me. Then, at this point I was telling
him all my doubts. He was a little on the fence, "Wait, I believed in this
too. I signed up for it. We've been doing this for 10 years together. We've
been married for 11 years at that point." I'm like, "Nah, nah. Here's why I
think pretty sure it's false. Sorry about that."

Miranda:

I sat my kids down. I'm like, "Hey, you know all those things I told you,
sorry, but I think I was wrong. I actually don't think God's going to be
mad if you have your birthday party at school now or if you have treats on
Valentine today, when your classes are in a party, I don't think you have
to [inaudible 00:42:21] in the hallway on the floor this time.

Miranda:

Kids were in kindergarten and second grade and it was hard. It was weird
just changing that overnight. The kids had their holiday party at school.
They had Valentine's and then somebody reported it to the church. Somebody
saw the kids eating Valentine's treats and they freaked out. The elder
started calling me all the time, calling my husband all the time and
showing up at our house unannounced. It had been like five months maybe
since I had been having doubts and not really attending, but they couldn't
really pin anything on us because the kids weren't official members and the
official members hadn't actually done the holiday. What kids do you have?

Miranda:

It was like kind of loophole. They couldn't really pin something. They knew
something's not right. Why would you let your kids do a holiday? My husband
was kind of on the fence at that point and that upset him the way they were
treating him. He's like, "My kid's in kindergarten. You're going to tell
the kindergartner, they can't have candy?" He's like, "You're mad because
my kindergarten ate a candy at school." Did you tell them too or that's
kind of a weird gray area. They couldn't really, there wasn't really enough
evidence to prosecute, to put us on trial.

Miranda:

After that we just, we actually ended up getting divorced because I
mentioned we didn't really have the greatest relationship in the first
place. About a year after that, we split up but because my first thing
like, "Okay, if I'm not in a church, I'm going back to school because I
sacrificed that for God and I want a career and I want an education and it
really threw out the dynamic of our relationship. Instead of being a
stay-at-home mom, I wanted to work and pursue further degrees and make more
money than him and everything.

Rebecca:

He didn't stay in the church either?

Miranda:

No, we both left the church. Then, once I was going to school and got a new
job. I'm like, "Hey, I've got this new career. I'm working in IT now. I
have almost done my bachelor's degree." Then, during that time, I got
pregnant with our youngest kid, which yeah, wasn't planned at least by me.
It certainly wasn't planned by me. I was already kind of one foot out the
door on the [inaudible 00:44:38] but some of his behavior shortly
thereafter definitely clenched that and he started getting controlling and
stalking and threatening. I just left.

Rebecca:

But you're back to the place now where the people who are still in the
church aren't talking to you again, like you're [crosstalk 00:44:58].

Miranda:

Oh no.

Rebecca:

Sort of or not really? You're not really excommunicated?

Miranda:

I'm not officially excommunicated. As far as I know, I just haven't shown
up for a long time. Could be en route, could be depressed, be sick. I
could, whatever. I have never shown up a trial. I've never officially made
some kind of announcement declaration about my beliefs or lack of beliefs.
The only people that I cared about keeping relationship with are my
parents, which so far I have been able to keep the relationship with them,
honestly, but tactfully and diplomatically.

Miranda:

They [inaudible 00:45:37] why aren't you showing up. We heard that you
haven't been or you haven't been for several weeks. It's because your
husband isn't it? I'm like, "No. It has nothing to do with him." I said,
"I've been researching the flood and some of what I'm readings [inaudible
00:45:54] it doesn't make sense to me. Here's a list of all the reference
books I've looked in. I've looked in the inside book, the reason book and
this magazine that's watched [inaudible 00:46:02] and none of this is
adding up to what makes sense. I don't feel comfortable doing it, talking
about it, if it doesn't, if I can't explain it.

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Miranda:

[inaudible 00:46:12] well, what if we arrange for this other elder to meet
with you. He's really smart. I'm trying to explain it in a way that makes
sense. I said, "No, no thank you. I appreciate that [inaudible 00:46:23].
I'm very, very thankful. I know a lot of people whose parents have not
accepted that or who have preemptively shunned them, even though the church
hadn't officially sanctioned it or declared it. At least at this point, I
do still have that good relationship with my mom and dad. They did move out
of state after that but we do stay in touch.

Rebecca:

Okay. Yeah. You don't have to be around them all the time anyway. It's not
like-

Miranda:

Yeah, it's not like it's a crisis for bringing it up every day, rubbing it.
I try not to mention the things that I do that I know are outside of their
beliefs. They know that I do some things, but I don't.

Rebecca:

Because it feels like you have a Christmas tree behind you?

Miranda:

Yeah. But that's what I'm saying.

Rebecca:

Yeah. You are different now. They don't celebrate Christmas probably.

Miranda:

Yes, yes. They know that, but they don't want to like hear about it. If
it's something that they find as tasteful, then I'm not going to mention it
and rub it in their face or whatever.

Rebecca:

Yeah. It's like the don't ask, don't tell policy.

Miranda:

Just pretty much, pretty much.

Rebecca:

It sounds like you came to a good place for yourself.

Miranda:

Yeah. I feel like I'm proud of how I've navigated that. It's been
[inaudible 00:47:41] but it was definitely something that was easier to do
the second go around because like the first time it was completely
unexpected, unprepared. This time, as a fully grown adult, I had a sense of
self and there's certain things I did beforehand that like started to
prepare myself for it. Probably, like a year before I left.

Miranda:

I started a Facebook account and I didn't have any [inaudible 00:48:06] on
it. I had all of them on my Instagram, but I didn't have any of them on my
Facebook account. I [inaudible 00:48:11] didn't even know myself at the
time why I did that. I was like, "I wonder how many people I know like how
much support do I have? How many people in this entire world do I actually
know that are not part of this?

Miranda:

It's like, well, there's a cousin maybe, there's somebody I used to work
with, some of my med school, a neighbor, my kids from school, their parent.
I was like slowly building up. It was a small group, a small social
network, which is really important to me in the type I am.

Rebecca:

Line four. You're line four.

Miranda:

Yeah. Yeah. I like having the resources, having that social [inaudible
00:48:49] slowly built that app over time. I remember there was like a
certain post, in January that was like right after I quit going to the
church. The very last service I went to was like January 1, 2015. A week or
two later, I posted, it was just some random thing, like a recipe but I
posted it on my Instagram and my Facebook at the same time.

Miranda:

I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to measure this, like statistical, how much
support do I have within my [inaudible 00:49:16] community that I'm about
to walk away from and how much support do I have in the full rest of the
world outside of that. To see like just how many people liked my popcorn
that I made or whatever it was.

Rebecca:

Yeah. Now, you've found community on Facebook, right? Right now, said you
are starting a community on Facebook or you have a community on Facebook or
[inaudible 00:49:37]?

Miranda:

Yes. Yes. Yes. Gosh, in the seven years, it's almost exactly to the day,
seven years since. Last time I was in the church and I'm 38 now, but I have
built so many communities and I have a hundred percent in myself, no matter
what happens in life, no matter what crazy things show up, I can find
community, I can find new friends. I can make connections. That's really
important to me. It's something that I think a lot of comfort in and a lot
of pride in that I can do that.

Miranda:

I had like my… you stripped away from me? I can build a new one. I can like
rise from the ashes. It was hard at first, but first of all, going to
school, I went back to college and I made connections there. I made a lot
of good connections. Finished my bachelor's degree. I went on to do a
master's degree immediately after. While I was going through the divorce
and having my last child, I had this newborn and I was like straight into,
"Okay, I'm working full time. I'm doing my master's degree." Yeah.

Rebecca:

Good for you. I mean, it feels inspiring just to hear it. I hope that other
people are inspired by this because coming from a place where you're told
not to think for yourself, just faith, these are the rules. This is what
you people believe. All of that and then being kicked out of the community
and then going back in and then going back outright, it's this thing.

Miranda:

Yeah. Yeah. Especially when I think back to like, "Man, I was like a
stay-at-home mom, no income, [inaudible 00:51:06] your degree, but I didn't
have anything beyond that and I remember thinking like, man, my kids
talking about, "Well, I want to be a scientist. I want to be this.

Miranda:

How can I encourage my kid to be the best they could be if I didn't? Here I
am doing nothing. I am just sitting at home, reading gossip and wearing my
bathrobe all day, not even like getting dressed, like, "Yeah. What kind of
example am I setting? I wonder if it's, wonder if it's too late. I wonder
if I could go back and still do like computer programming.

Rebecca:

It's never too late, right?

Miranda:

My thought is like, there's no way. I'll just go to the [inaudible
00:51:39] and I'll ask them, I'll say, "Hey, I dropped out 10 years ago.
Can I pick up where I left off with computering and business?" They're
like, "Yeah." "But really? I'm sure it changed a lot. Technology moves
quickly." "No, looks like you're good." Yeah, we had one course in business
ethics. You need one extra class, but yeah, you can jump right back into
the program you're in and finish it out within a year.

Rebecca:

Great.

Miranda:

Let's do this.

Rebecca:

Yes.

Miranda:

I did.

Rebecca:

I mean, I believe the best thing we can do for our kids is be ourselves.
You know what I mean? It's like if we can be ourselves and show that we can
trust ourselves and believe in what we want to do, they can be themselves,
that they can do what they want to do.

Miranda:

For a while, I felt like I was frantically rushing and trying to make up
lost time. I'm like, "Oh my God, I have to do everything." I've never been
to a nightclub before. I need to go out and party. I had never done
anything. I've never gambled. I have a list of sins on my bucket list of
[inaudible 00:52:39], "Oh my gosh, I have to try this."

Miranda:

All these things that I have always been forbidden and yeah, in my
thirties, going through the, what probably people usually [inaudible
00:52:48] teenage years, it was just like a totally different life. I don't
know how much regular astrology fits with this, but in regular Western
astrology, my Saturn and Pluto are conjunct in my fifth house. Hobbies and
friends and fun.

Rebecca:

Play and fun, right? Children.

Miranda:

Oh, play is in my fifth house. Both of those were like super [inaudible
00:53:08]. I was super limited on all of that fifth house stuff until after
[inaudible 00:53:13]. Suddenly, it was like release in my thirties. "Oh, I
can do that now. There's no one stopping me." I don't have to-

Rebecca:

Wait, did you say the sun was in the fifth house or what was in the fifth
house?

Miranda:

No, no, Saturn and Pluto with a one [inaudible 00:53:27] conjunction.

Rebecca:

Oh, wow. Yeah.

Miranda:

It's super tight, both very limiting. Yeah. After my Saturn returned
though, it was just like the cloud lifted [inaudible 00:53:37]. I'm allowed
to have fun now. I can-

Rebecca:

That's interesting. Yeah.

Miranda:

I have friends now.

Rebecca:

I can be creative.

Miranda:

I can have Hobbies. I can go places. I'm allowed to just do stuff. I can
watch an R rated movie.

Rebecca:

Congratulations.

Miranda:

Yeah. Yeah, it's been really fun and I always say like, my 30s are so much
better than my 20s or [inaudible 00:54:03]. No disrespect to my parents. I
love them dearly. I think they loved me a lot and did the best they could
and certainly believe in that they raised me.

Rebecca:

But that's my favorite belief is they did the best they could because
that's what they really believed was right. That's my favorite thing to
believe about the past. My parents did the best they could, you know?

Miranda:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

We're not going to go back and change any of it. Miranda, thank you so much
for sharing the story with us. I really appreciate it.

Miranda:

Thank you. I do have a Facebook group called Religious Trauma Healing. That
is a lot of ex-Jehovah Witnesses, some ex-Mormons, some former 7th day
Adventist. A lot of them are also interested in astrology and spiritual
communities. I work through some of the things I've learned in therapy and
some of the things I've learned from cult experts.

Rebecca:

Yeah. How would people find that? Is there like, I mean, do you have to be
your friend or do you just go type in?

Miranda:

I think you can just search Religious Trauma Healing. There's like-

Rebecca:

Religious Trauma Healing. Okay.

Miranda:

There's some like star emojis before it. Then, there's a couple membership
questions you have to answer that I can approve.

Rebecca:

Religious Trauma Healing group. I will put it in the show notes.

Miranda:

Then, I also have started writing a few blog posts on astrology and tarot
society that I'm part of and they've asked me to write a few blog post of
my life story. I've started that and the first post is up and I can send
you a link to that as well.

Rebecca:

Yeah. Just send me the links and then-

Miranda:

[inaudible 00:55:34] some of the same stuff I shared here, but more like
what my childhood was like as a Jehovah Witness.

Rebecca:

Yeah, because I'm sure this is going to help somebody. I appreciate you
sharing with us.

Miranda:

Yeah. Thank you.

Rebecca:

Thank you for being here.

Miranda:

Absolutely. Thanks for having me. It was fun.

Rebecca:

Bye. If you enjoyed listening to this podcast, please go subscribe so that
you get notified of all the future goodies that are coming along. While
you're there, please leave me a review and let me know what you think. So
excited to share this with you and can't wait to talk to you next time.
Bye.